The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[Davkaus]

38 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Cause you have all the facts I'm sure! 

You have avoided talking about a huge percentage of asylum seekers who have no interest in going through the system and just disappear into the country somewhere, these are mostly the ones who live off crime, they come here for it. It's known around most of eastern Europe the UK are known to be easy pickings, due to our lifestyle and laws, you need to know some and speak to them to get facts.

In the end its a complex topic, I'm sure we share that fact. There are no real factual answers what they are 'all' coming here for. But if you think it's all to make a new life for there families, learn the language, get a 9-5  and intergrate into UK communities, you are far more naive than your posts suggest.

 

 

 

I've not claimed to have all of the answers. A brief recap. You moaned that they don't integrate, I highlighted the problem with us putting up barriers to that integration, and you go on to change the subject and make more spurious claims based upon facts you've admitted that you don't have.

[foreveryoung]

11 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I've not claimed to have all of the answers. A brief recap. You moaned that they don't integrate, I highlighted the problem with us putting up barriers to that integration, and you go on to change the subject and make more spurious claims based upon facts you've admitted that you don't have.

It's not the barriers that stop integration. Many different communities have lived  here for decades and still don't intergrate.

[desensitized43]

58 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

This is has parallels to Australia. There was a repeated problem of boats making attempts to cross from Indonesia to Australia and regularly not making the journey with thousands dying in the process. It’s a massive coastline and a treacherous sea. It’s very easy for a fishing trawler type boat to try and make the journey carrying people in the hull but get into trouble on route and sink before help can arrive. 

Once the government changed its rules to make it impossible for a person to receive asylum in Australia they arrived by unknown boat the attempted journeys stopped and so did all the deaths. It’s now a bipartisan approach from both major parties. 

I’d actually be quite happy if we passed a law that meant you couldn’t claim asylum if you’d crossed the channel in an undeclared fashion but I’d also like to see a law passed to go with this requiring the government to set up centres abroad where these people can actually declare their need to claim asylum status. The two go hand in hand, unless the intention is to just **** these people over because you don’t want to take any of them…which I suspect is the position of a few.

[LondonLax]

6 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

I’d actually be quite happy if we passed a law that meant you couldn’t claim asylum if you’d crossed the channel in an undeclared fashion but I’d also like to see a law passed to go with this requiring the government to set up centres abroad where these people can actually declare their need to claim asylum status. The two go hand in hand, unless the intention is to just **** these people over because you don’t want to take any of them…which I suspect is the position of a few.

I might be wrong (perhaps someone would be more knowledgeable than me on it?) but I don’t think the European Court of Human Rights would permit the UK to enact such a law.

Off shore processing (in countries like Naru) was also a part of the Australian approach.

Edited November 1, 2022 by LondonLax

[mjmooney]

7 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I don’t think the European Court of Human Rights would permit the UK to enact such a law.

Which is why many Tories want out of it. What right have these bloody 'Europeans' to tell us what to do in our own glorious country. Who won The War, anyway? 

[mjmooney]

[Xann]

30 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not the barriers that stop integration. Many different communities have lived  here for decades and still don't intergrate.

How integrated do you feel with the Eton words removed that are robbing your children blind?

[choffer]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not the barriers that stop integration. Many different communities have lived  here for decades and still don't intergrate.

Scotland says hi. 

[blandy]

2 hours ago, Straggler said:

You put them in the same category as people who have no interest in going through the system and disappear into the country to live off crime. The people who want to avoid the system and live off crime are illegal immigrants. By your own definition an asylum seeker is awaiting a decision and are therefore inside the system. They cannot be both inside the system and avoiding it. That you are conflating the two suggests you are either unable to tell the difference or are deliberately using inflammatory and inaccurate language to strengthen your argument. 

Unfortunately genuine refugees and genuine crooks and economic migrants are all arriving via exactly the same route. It’s sorting out the people deserving and needing safe asylum from the Albanian and other mainly Eastern Europe crooks which needs to be done efficiently and effectively, and it isn’t being done that way. It seems incredible, but 2% of the Albanian male population under 40 is believed to have come to the uk. It’s a poor nation, but they are not refugees, they’re at best economic migrants and at worst criminal gangsters, stealing cars, dealing drugs, running prostitution and so on. The ne’erdowells are hoping to pass themselves off as refugees, or to at least once they’re on British soil, to do a runner before they are returned. Illegal immigration is harmful, and while it’s never going to be stopped and is only a small percentage 4 or 5% of genuine refugee numbers, it’s still a significant number, given the 10s of thousands of people arriving here via the channel crossings.

I think the government quite intentionally conflates the two groups and it’s hard to blame people who don’t follow things closely for believing what the government implies.

[cyrusr]

37 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I might be wrong (perhaps someone would be more knowledgeable than me on it?) but I don’t think the European Court of Human Rights would permit the UK to enact such a law.

Off shore processing (in countries like Naru) was also a part of the Australian approach.

One of the (many) misinterpreted European Laws Rules. Whilst we have to consider the impact of the HRA (and convention of Human Rights), UK Judges only have to take the Courts decisions into account;  they don’t have to follow it.

UK Supreme Court & Europe

 

Quote

The Human Rights Act also requires UK courts, including the Supreme Court, to "take account" of decisions of the European Court of Human Rights (which sits in Strasbourg). UK courts are not required, however, always to follow the decisions of that Court. Indeed, they can decline to do so, particularly if they consider that the Strasbourg Court has not sufficiently appreciated or accommodated particular aspects of our domestic constitutional position.

There is almost certainly a pragmatic, cost effective way to deal with the immigration situation in a humane way, it just doesn’t suite the Tories to solve the problem. 

[blandy]

22 hours ago, limpid said:

What have they done that is "illegal"? Specifically, which law have they broken?

Section 40 of the 2022 Nationality and Borders act, which amends section 24 of the Immigration Act 1971 to create two new offences:

Quote

 

Where a person who requires entry clearance under the immigration rules (almost certainly any small boat arrival) knowingly arrives in the UK without valid entry clearance (section 24(D1), commenced 28 June 2022).

Where a person is required under the immigration rules not to travel to the UK without an ETA knowingly arrives in the UK without such an ETA (section 24(E1), not yet commenced).

 

https://freemovement.org.uk/are-people-crossing-the-channel-in-small-boats-doing-anything-illegal/

[sidcow]

I preferred this thread when it was chock full of Liz Truss **** ups. 

[KentVillan]

2 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

It's not the barriers that stop integration. Many different communities have lived  here for decades and still don't intergrate.

The whole concept of “integration” is based on the idea that there’s a static, authentic British culture, but there isn’t. Even within the white British community, the culture changes constantly.

I’d love someone to explain what British culture is. What they usually mean is their own personal culture within their immediate social circle.

I imagine my “indigenous” white British family wouldn’t have much in common with you culturally, but we’ve been here just as long as your family. People are quirky and have their own ways.

[Dodgyknees]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

I preferred this thread when it was chock full of Liz Truss **** ups. 

Im still having multiple Truss cock ups

[andym]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Unfortunately genuine refugees and genuine crooks and economic migrants are all arriving via exactly the same route. It’s sorting out the people deserving and needing safe asylum from the Albanian and other mainly Eastern Europe crooks which needs to be done efficiently and effectively, and it isn’t being done that way. It seems incredible, but 2% of the Albanian male population under 40 is believed to have come to the uk. It’s a poor nation, but they are not refugees, they’re at best economic migrants and at worst criminal gangsters, stealing cars, dealing drugs, running prostitution and so on. The ne’erdowells are hoping to pass themselves off as refugees, or to at least once they’re on British soil, to do a runner before they are returned. Illegal immigration is harmful, and while it’s never going to be stopped and is only a small percentage 4 or 5% of genuine refugee numbers, it’s still a significant number, given the 10s of thousands of people arriving here via the channel crossings.

I think the government quite intentionally conflates the two groups and it’s hard to blame people who don’t follow things closely for believing what the government implies.

Some fair points, and certain politicians definitely conflate the groups, because to them its just all one group who they look at with contempt and disgust. However, i'm not sure i'd absolve people of blame for blindly following them (and their mouthpieces in the mail, express etc) and joining in with their nasty rhetoric; it doesn't take much to do a quick google and do your own reading around the subject.

It can be hard at times not to judge by appearances, but for a persons first thought about anyone who ends up in a dingy to immediately be 'scrounging scum' ; well i struggle to understand that lack of empathy. 

Economic migration is an interesting one; i'm not sure i'd blame anyone for wanting to seek a better life elsewhere (although i'm probably biased as my partner is the granddaughter of an economic migrant). What if you take it right down to within the country; if you move to a different town/city than where you grew up for work, are you not taking a job and a house from a local? Is that more acceptable just because you happen to be born within the same man-made lines on a map of the world? If you are willing to work and contribute positively, then it doesn't really bother me.

Its not an easy issue to solve, but the current lot are making no attempt to do so.

 

 

[blandy]

9 hours ago, andym said:

Economic migration is an interesting one; i'm not sure i'd blame anyone for wanting to seek a better life elsewhere (although i'm probably biased as my partner is the granddaughter of an economic migrant). What if you take it right down to within the country; if you move to a different town/city than where you grew up for work, are you not taking a job and a house from a local? Is that more acceptable just because you happen to be born within the same man-made lines on a map of the world? If you are willing to work and contribute positively, then it doesn't really bother me.

I agree completely. Moving/migrating to work for yourself and family is no bad thing at all. And to stay on topic, the Country needs people to come here and work. Whether that’s in the NHS, or picking fruit, or working in hospitality, or retail or….

The tories have inflicted huge damage via their Brexit, via austerity, via Truss’s loony budget, via covid incompetence, via Russian influenced culture wars crap and corruption.  The absolute state of it all.

[Genie]

It’s being reported Hancock is being paid £350k to go on I’m a Celebrity. It’ll be worth it to see him torn to pieces (either by others on the show or by a lion)

[ender4]

13 hours ago, choffer said:

Scotland says hi. 

and don't forget the scousers. They still haven't integrated.

[Straggler]

13 hours ago, blandy said:

Section 40 of the 2022 Nationality and Borders act, which amends section 24 of the Immigration Act 1971 to create two new offences:

https://freemovement.org.uk/are-people-crossing-the-channel-in-small-boats-doing-anything-illegal/

To flip this around a little bit how is it possible to legally apply for asylum in the UK?

Our rules are that you have to be physically in the UK to apply. There is no such thing as an asylum visa. You could in theory travel on a tourist visa, but you would probably have to lie on that application which would break the law. All this makes it virtually impossible to apply for asylum in the UK legally.

This forces people into those boats that we all want to stop and into the hands of the criminal gangs that we don't want operating.  Our own policies are self defeating and stupid, designed for rhetoric rather than practical application. 

The answer is if course to provide a safe and legal way of allowing genuine asylum seekers to apply before reaching our borders. Having created a safe and simple route for genuine refugees we can then treat people crossing illegally as criminals and it won't be so difficult to distinguish between refugees and criminals.

Sadly our government don't wish for us to be able to distinguish between criminals and refugees because it suits them to have people ignorant, angry and scared of the other. Braverman uses language that is indistinguishable from the National Front. When we hear that language from the centre of our government alarm bells should be ringing.

[bickster]

14 minutes ago, ender4 said:

and don't forget the scousers. They still haven't integrated.

The Welsh / Irish / Lancastrians think that's nonsense