The banker loving, baby-eating Tory party thread (regenerated)

[DCJonah]

one for @foreveryoungto read. 

 

 

[LondonLax]

12 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

one for @foreveryoungto read. 

 

 

I don’t think invoking Godwin’s law helps this guys argument on this. 

[Genie]

 

[MakemineVanilla]

Governments have long had an enthusiasm for importing labour in defiance of what the electorate wanted, they have just rebranded their excuses to pacify the electorate. In the 1950s they had the policy of dispersing immigrants so as not to alarm the population. It seems highly likely that had the populace known their actual intentions, Brexit would have been rejected.

It seems that a lot of nations have been very concerned with increasing their population and countries like France used to hand out medals to the mothers of large families (10+). I am sure the depopulation of Scotland and Ireland had a lot to do with lessening their potential to threaten England's dominance. Wasn't one of the reasons that Germany was partitioned into east and west was to lessen their potential for dominating the continent? Some countries are less apologetic about it than others, and I can remember an item on Deutsche Welle, back in 2008, when the Germans were rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of attracting Spanish engineers, after their economy collapsed.

So it doesn't seem like a coincidence that a British government desperate to provide cheap labour for the service economy they created, found a way of circumventing their own claim that they wanted to control immigration, which is all dressed up as humanitarian concerns and international treaty, and therefore out of their control.

They continue to spout slogans and announce crackpot schemes to deal with the influx of economic migrants but do the actual opposite.

It is a Tory authodoxy that the main engine of growth in the economy is the ever-increasing value of property, and that can't be sustained in a shrinking population.

The question and answer is always Cui Bono!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by MakemineVanilla

[desensitized43]

8 minutes ago, Genie said:

 

You won't win the argument by posting "facts" peddled by those notorious communists at the University of Oxford. The only fact I need is my own intuition and feelings.

[Genie]

It’s framed disgustingly by our politicians. 

 

[sidcow]

Sunak now attending COP27.

U-Turn number 1

[Genie]

1 minute ago, sidcow said:

Sunak now attending COP27.

U-Turn number 1

King Charles next?

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Sunak now attending COP27.

U-Turn number 1

Only because he hasn't had time to announce the others yet

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Straggler said:

To flip this around a little bit how is it possible to legally apply for asylum in the UK?

When there was all the problem with the migrants in France and the lorries and Sangatte refugee "camp" the then Labour Gov't and Sarkosy worked together to allow UK border people to be based in Calais to process people there, and the French authorities (rather brutally) closed down the camp, put up fences and so on to, over a couple of years or so, resolve that particular problem. This is what led the people smugglers to start using the even more dangerous method of boats. But we did Brexit, and the co-operation and trust with the French has been broken by the Tories. So they are a lot less accomodating - "it's your problem" basically.

For Afghan people, for Ukrainians and for Hong Kong people, they can apply before they arrive in the UK. For Syrians, Iraqis, North Africans...they can't.

The issue with the channel can only be solved, in terms of stopping people being drowned and undertaking the perilous journey across the Channel by going back to processing them at the French border, and even then you imagine the smugglers will perhaps move to a different location than around Calais.

Unfortunately, I guess the trail of human misery is only going to get worse over time, due to war and climate change and the criminals are going to continue to exploit people for their own ends. Addressing those issues requires and will always require co-operation between nations, which is something the right wing Tories are set against.

[HKP90]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again- the right wing, particularly the far right must have an antagonist. This 'us and them' thing is how they draw power. Brexit (us versus those bureaucrats in brussels), the migrant crisis (us versus foreigners), Trump (us vs mexicans- BUILD A WALL, also us versus democrats, and us versus liberals), Snowflakes (us versus woke), feminism (us versus women).  

Sometimes problems arise that aren't the fault of people you hate, and almost all of the time solutions borne from hate or intolerance cannot solve those problems (you can't deport greenhouse gases). 

It's such an insular fear driven ideology, and a viewpoint of privilege- protect what I have, even if it means others going without. 

I should say that I myself do not class myself as Left Wing, or a socialist (although there are elements of socialism that make sense when solving problems which span society). I'm a centrist, and I feel increasingly like i'm one of few that share this position.  

Edited November 2, 2022 by HKP90
typo

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

one for @foreveryoungto read. 

 

 

I once saw Nitin Sawhney performing at the Pyramid Stage at Glastonbury in front of a very small early afternoon crowd.

I'd dragged all my friends along because I love his music. Think they were fairly underwhelmed.

Anyway, about halfway through, some lad in the crowd just decides he wants to climb the Pyramid Stage, and starts making his way up over the barriers, and doing a dangerous looking climb along ladders up towards the middle, as a camera tracks his journey.

Nitin stops playing and gestures to security to sort it out. Then I think tells him to **** off as he's hauled off by security, never to be seen again.

So, just saying, he doesn't have an unblemished record of welcoming people with open arms.

Jokes aside, he's absolutely right, and I'm caught in two minds about "Godwin's Law" when we're talking about the rise of fascism, antisemitism and fracturing of Europe at the moment. It does feel a bit like history is threatening to repeat itself in a nasty way.

[bickster]

It's a common misconception that Godwin's Law means you've lost the argument. Just saying. It's perfectly acceptable to say something is like Nazi Germany if it is indeed like Nazi Germany.

Godwin's Law is just an observation about the length of discussions on the internet and the likelihood that someone will mention Nazis / Hitler.

[HKP90]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

It's a common misconception that Godwin's Law means you've lost the argument. Just saying. It's perfectly acceptable to say something is like Nazi Germany if it is indeed like Nazi Germany.

Godwin's Law is just an observation about the length of discussions on the internet and the likelihood that someone will mention Nazis / Hitler.

God, you can't say anything on here without someone pulling you up on it. It's like..........................Mussolini's Italy. 

 

 

[sidcow]

54 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again- the right wing, particularly the far right must have an antagonist. This 'us and them' thing is how they draw power. Brexit (us versus those bureaucrats in brussels), the migrant crisis (us versus foreigners), Trump (us vs mexicans- BUILD A WALL, also us versus democrats, and us versus liberals), Snowflakes (us versus woke), feminism (us versus women).  

Sometimes problems arise that aren't the fault of people you hate, and almost all of the time solutions borne from hate or intolerance cannot solve those problems (you can't deport greenhouse gases). 

It's such an insular fear driven ideology, and a viewpoint of privilege- protect what I have, even if it means others going without. 

I should say that I myself do not class myself as Left Wing, or a socialist (although there are elements of socialism that make sense when solving problems which span society). I'm a centrist, and I feel increasingly like i'm one of few that share this position.  

What about us v the red faced Gammon Daily Mail readers?

[blandy]

1 hour ago, HKP90 said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again- the right wing, particularly the far right must have an antagonist. This 'us and them' thing is how they draw power. Brexit (us versus those bureaucrats in brussels), the migrant crisis (us versus foreigners), Trump (us vs mexicans- BUILD A WALL, also us versus democrats, and us versus liberals), Snowflakes (us versus woke), feminism (us versus women).  

That's populism, basically. Present yourself as the authentic voice of "what people are thinking" against a perceived enemy/force that is holding them back or imposing something not right. Thus populists must (in their minds) be the voice of the silent majority.

Problem is, if they lose an election, or if there are mass protests against them, this cannot tally with them representing the majority, so it must be somehow manipulated, or corrupted, or stolen by "the enemy". Hence Trump, hence why Brexit is a disaster. Enemies of the people, Anti Growth Coalition, Remainers, Woke, Climate Scientists....

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, LondonLax said:

I don’t think invoking Godwin’s law helps this guys argument on this. 

Why?

[Genie]

I’m glad I didn’t watch it, I think i’d have punched my screen.

Quote

1. Rishi Sunak is facing his second Prime Minister's Questions - watch live by clicking play at the top of the page
2. As overcrowding continues at Manston migrant processing centre in Kent, Labour's Keir Starmer presses the PM on why the asylum system is "broken"
3. Sunak counters by saying Labour has voted against laws that would solve immigration problems
4. But Starmer says the Rwanda policy has cost £140m and hasn't led to any deportations - why can't Sunak get a "proper home secretary" instead of Suella Braverman, he asks
5. Sunak responds that Labour aren't coming up with any solutions and says he wants to remind Starmer that he supported Jeremy Corbyn

BBC

[ml1dch]

  

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

Sunak now attending COP27.

U-Turn number 1

 

Probably for the best. 

Edited November 2, 2022 by ml1dch

[LondonLax]

41 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Why?

Because the hyperbol kills any discussion dead. The people you are trying to convince switch off and stop paying attention.