Game of Thrones (Spoilers)

[Stevo985]

6 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

I dunno, I’m still ok with it, I felt the same build up towards her insanity as Arya becoming a badass (although with her I do wish they would stop swapping between a frightened little girl and a trained assassin)

Even over 6 months, that’s enough to send anybody mental, without already having previous. 

I do agree this season needed to be a lot longer though. 

But Arya's training as an assassin has been going on since Season 5 in Braavos.

And again I'm not disagreeing that it's enough to send someone mental. I completely agree that it is. My issue is you don't see much of it. Because the show is moving so fast it appears like one minute she's relatively fine and the next minute she's murdering thousands of innocent people for no reason.

[JB]

I’ve got no issue with Dany going mad. I think the signs have been there since near the beginning and it’s where the story was always going. That said, I don’t like how mad she went (if that makes sense). I think it would’ve been enough of a heel turn and more believable if the innocent people had been collateral damage and she hadn’t cared, rather than having the battle won and then choosing to go on a homicidal rampage. As it was, it didn’t feel earned or effectively built up to. It was way OTT and felt like it was done for the sake of spectacle. She essentially turned from a bit of a dick into one of the most vicious, evil people who ever lived.

[Chindie]

Dany has struck me throughout the series as someone learning to be a leader. The show has shown her as someone who has compassion for innocents, but who is also very vengeful. She does not offer any quarter to those that have wronged her. Her instinct is to rule with a rod of iron and her advisers have often tempered that, which has had the effect of her arc coming across as someone fulfilling a destiny but also one of overcoming naivety.

That doesn't mean her character can't ultimately become 'the mad queen'. There's nothing narratively that says a naive leader can't become a genocidal maniac and not have it be dramatically satisfying. I actually quite like the idea that Dany ultimately can't become a good leader - it would fit the show's tone that the destiny driven leader fails because destiny doesn't mean anything, ability does... But if you are going to do that, especially if you're going to swerve a compassionate character into a raining death from above nutcase, you need to develop it. And the show hasn't. This series has effectively given us 'Dany has a bad week' and expects us to just go with that as being enough to have her go crazy. But instead it comes off as 'We want her to go crazy. So she is'. Even if you argue, as would be justifiable, that she's always had that streak of ruling through fear, it's a hell of a leap to go from ruling with a rod of iron to wholesale indiscriminate murder of non-combatants. It's a leap that can be made, but not in so few episodes, and that moment of her turning is literally going from 0 to lightspeed in a second in the tyrant stakes.

[jacketspuds]

The biggest thing I struggled to get over was that I originally expected this series to be the other way around. i.e. King's Landing stuff dealt with first, then focussing on the Night King as the "big bad".

In the end we will kind of get 3 with NK, Cersei and Dany.

[Stevo985]

3 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Dany has struck me throughout the series as someone learning to be a leader. The show has shown her as someone who has compassion for innocents, but who is also very vengeful. She does not offer any quarter to those that have wronged her. Her instinct is to rule with a rod of iron and her advisers have often tempered that, which has had the effect of her arc coming across as someone fulfilling a destiny but also one of overcoming naivety.

That doesn't mean her character can't ultimately become 'the mad queen'. There's nothing narratively that says a naive leader can't become a genocidal maniac and not have it be dramatically satisfying. I actually quite like the idea that Dany ultimately can't become a good leader - it would fit the show's tone that the destiny driven leader fails because destiny doesn't mean anything, ability does... But if you are going to do that, especially if you're going to swerve a compassionate character into a raining death from above nutcase, you need to develop it. And the show hasn't. This series has effectively given us 'Dany has a bad week' and expects us to just go with that as being enough to have her go crazy. But instead it comes off as 'We want her to go crazy. So she is'. Even if you argue, as would be justifiable, that she's always had that streak of ruling through fear, it's a hell of a leap to go from ruling with a rod of iron to wholesale indiscriminate murder of non-combatants. It's a leap that can be made, but not in so few episodes, and that moment of her turning is literally going from 0 to lightspeed in a second in the tyrant stakes.

This is exactly what I mean.

I like that she's gone mad and I think it makes sense in terms of the story.

I just don't like the way it was developed. It happened too fast.

[Demitri_C]

One thing I find more stupid about anything this year was its harder to kill the mountain than the night king. 

[PieFacE]

3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

It's just so Hollywood these days.

Everything kind of happens like you'd expect it. Loads of plot armour for big characters, or if they do die you can see it coming and it isn't a shock.

And everything in the story is playing out as you'd expect.

 

There's just no shocks. Part of what made Game of Thrones so good was it not conforming to the norm. Now it's just the norm.

This

[Designer1]

5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

One thing I find more stupid about anything this year was its harder to kill the mountain than the night king. 

The Mountain is kind of an undead zombie impervious to pain, with no real specific weakness. The Night King on the other hand had a glaring weakness that was exploited.

[Stevo985]

6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

One thing I find more stupid about anything this year was its harder to kill the mountain than the night king. 

Depends what you mean by harder.

In one on one combat the Mountain proved harder.

But the Night King had an entire army of the dead protecting him.

 

It's like saying Djora was harder to kill than Dany might be.
one on one, yeah. But Dany has a big **** off dragon and an army of unsullied.

[Straggler]

I'm still most bothered by the transformation of Cersei.  She had planned, thought, back stabbed, schemed and assassinated her way through this show.  We know there is no length she won't go to to protect herself and her family.  So from the point she can see that she is up against dragons and that the army of the dead is real she prepares for it by hiring the Golden Company and building scorpions.  A bit of a shag to get the Iron Fleet onside and that is it.  Up to that point the scorpions had managed to hurt, but not kill one dragon so it was by no means a sure thing that they would work.  So if the army of the dead win her plan fails as they surely overwhelm her. If the army of humans win, she loses because - Dragons.  The only way she wins is a narrow victory for man kind where all the dragons are killed, which is a bit of a long shot to be banking on.

Even after that, with the opposing army at her gates and a dragon killed by a scorpion, you could then maybe forgive her for getting a little cocky, but she also managed to get herself a useful prisoner in Missandei. So what does she do? She cuts the head off her only leverage.  To what end?  To piss off Dany?  You want to kill a dragon you need to have a good shot at it, a good way of managing that is maneuvering said dragon into a place you can prepare a cross fire.  Missandei was the only bait they had to make that work and she was given up for no gain at all.  All of Cersie's logic and cunning deserted her when she had all the time in the world to prepare.  She could have sent a company or two of her army up to fight in the north to pretend to ally and have them try and kill Danny and Jon during or after the battle.  She could have sent her army up north in its entirety to wait until after the battle then sweep in and kill off the survivors before they have a chance to regroup.  She could have fully committed her forces in the north (to ensure the survival of mankind and indeed herself), arrange a glorious victory parade in Kings Landing and line the parade with scorpions.

Even if we assume she was arrogant enough to think that the dragons could be dealt with by scorpions, having her watch out of the window as the Dragon burns its way through the city was just pathetic.  She didn't even have an escape plan.  The pregnant born survivor who wants nothing more in the world than to see her baby born and to prosper had a bit of a cry and started looking around for someone to save her.  Then she goes on about how the Red Keep has never fallen which is why she is safe from a fricking dragon!  Never mind the fact that she is only sat in the Red Keep because her Dad (amongst others) took it by force.  She can see the dragon destroying the city walls like a monster truck in a lego village and her reasoning is what?  

She went from one of the most compelling baddies ever to an imitation of Padme in Revenge of the Sith, staring out of windows and waiting to be rescued.

[jacketspuds]

Spoiler

Looking forward to a Jon Snow vs. Grey Worm scrap in the next episode. Pure guess work on my part though.

 

[wazzap24]

32 minutes ago, jacketspuds said:

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Looking forward to a Jon Snow vs. Grey Worm scrap in the next episode. Pure guess work on my part though.

 

Yep, the look gave it away when Jon was telling his men to hold back. 

Grey Worm will be the last one loyal to Auntie. 

[Davkaus]

I really don't know what I think happens now.

Option one, Dany solidifies her power, Jon gets either burned alive, or perhaps even takes the black and goes back to the wall. That'd be a very GRRM ending. The nice guys don't always win. But she's infertile and has no heir. What would happen next?

Option 2, Jon turns on Dany, or perhaps Arya kills her. Power defaults to Jon, but he doesn't want it. What does he do? I think devolve the power to the 7 kingdoms, and dismantle the idea of ruler of Westeros. I'm not sure he'd even want to keep the title of king in the north, and would leave Winterfell in the hands of Sansa. 

Either way, I half expect the show to conclude with a scene of either the dead rising again, or the beginning of civil war. The cycle always continues.

[villa89]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

One thing I find more stupid about anything this year was its harder to kill the mountain than the night king. 

You should have realised when his helmet came off that the mountain was actually a character from Mortal Kombat 11, available for £9.99 in the Game of Thrones DLC. 

[villa4europe]

14 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I really don't know what I think happens now.

Option one, Dany solidifies her power, Jon gets either burned alive, or perhaps even takes the black and goes back to the wall. That'd be a very GRRM ending. The nice guys don't always win. But she's infertile and has no heir. What would happen next?

Option 2, Jon turns on Dany, or perhaps Arya kills her. Power defaults to Jon, but he doesn't want it. What does he do? I think devolve the power to the 7 kingdoms, and dismantle the idea of ruler of Westeros. I'm not sure he'd even want to keep the title of king in the north, and would leave Winterfell in the hands of Sansa. 

Either way, I half expect the show to conclude with a scene of either the dead rising again, or the beginning of civil war. The cycle always continues.

my guess is that she tries but jon doesn't get burned alive and everyone gets to know who he really is

sansa is left on the throne which is now in winterfell whilst Jon goes north

can see the last scenes being the answer to brann / night king and yeah suggesting that the cycle continues, maybe a wire-esque montage suggesting that its not the characters that make the 7 kingdoms but the 7 kingdoms that make the characters

Edited May 14, 2019 by villa4europe

[Chindie]

I'd stake good money that the series ends with something of a mirror of the situation that began it. A mad ruler killed, an unsettled kingdom, the beginnings of another war, and maybe even a birth of a new Night King.

Jon's either going to take the throne begrudgingly or outright reject it and go back beyond the Wall.

[Davkaus]

1 minute ago, villa4europe said:

my guess is jon doesn't get burned alive and everyone gets to know who he really is

I've seen a few suggestions that Jon won't be burned, in the same way than Dany wasn't in season 1 (or was it 2?).

Jon already suffered burns when the wights attack in season 1. So I think it's nailed on the writers would be dumb enough to do it.  

[LondonLax]

16 hours ago, mikeyp102 said:

So disappointed with this series. 

As others have said, how easy was the fleet taken down as opposed to last week. Deadeye last week and missed from even closer this week. 

Cleganebowl.. yawn.

Dany not having sympathy, completely out of character and the “mad element” not built up enough.

Pretty much what everyone has said up above.

And let’s not even get on to Greyworms “intense” stare. 

There’s two things with the dragons vs the scorpion ballista.

Last week the dragons were flying around thinking they were basically invincible but were taken by surprise. 

Even then only the limp, wounded dragon got hit. They foreshadowed it with Sansa watching it struggle to fly properly with the hole in its wing. 

It’s not too unbelievable to think the healthy dragon, with the aid of a rider and coming prepared, could out manoeuvre the guns the second time round. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by LondonLax

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

Depends what you mean by harder.

In one on one combat the Mountain proved harder.

But the Night King had an entire army of the dead protecting him.

 

It's like saying Djora was harder to kill than Dany might be.
one on one, yeah. But Dany has a big **** off dragon and an army of unsullied.

Well back in season three was it he services being stabbed seemingly fatally by oberyn martel. Then  yesterday the hound literally obliterates him how many times and he is still standing for large parts! 

Meanwhile they hyped night king and he literally didn't even battle them dies without a whimper. 

[Stevo985]

5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Well back in season three was it he services being stabbed seemingly fatally by oberyn martel. Then  yesterday the hound literally obliterates him how many times and he is still standing for large parts! 

That's because he's now a zombie. Obviously if he was still a human he wouldn't have survived the stabbings that the Hound gave him.