The Randy Lerner thread

[Stevo985]

 

 

In a typical business model in a normal industry the chairman would have far more control over finances along with his trusty FD than happens in football

 

The problem with football is it all centres around the ability in the transfer market and that responsibility lies with the manager and his staff.

 

I still maintain over the last 8 years if the quality of player had of been achieved in sufficient quantity as opposed to one or two...the financial climate of our club would have been different.

 

It wasn't that we spent too much money of fee's and wages.....it was the fact we never got any return in performance from TOO MANY players.

 

 

See, I disagree here because I think you are merging two distinct things into one.

 

Yes businesses are run that way but so too are football clubs, or they should be because they are sadly first and foremost businesses these days. Now granted most aren't run at a profit but all need to be run in a sustainable way, we weren't and that was entirely Lerner's fault not O'Neill's.

 

I doubt O'Neill knew what we could or couldn't afford to be spending and it wasn't his job to worry about that it was his job to try and build a winning football side. Yes there needs to be some thoughts about sustainability from the manager, through those signings made but the financial management of the club is not the managers responsibility.

 

You won't see me disagree about your general point about how money was spent by a succession of managers, you certainly won't see me defend O'Neill a man I wanted rid of at least 12 months before he went. I agree if managers performances had been better we would have done better financially.

 

But I think your last line in the part of your post above is completely and utterly wrong as is shown by the financial results of the club. Even when we were finishing 6th we were spending too much on wages relative to our income, it wasn't sustainable, it was never ever sustainable without the financial support of Lerner which he decided to stop giving to the same extent after the first 4 years.

 

 

Randy Lerner right or wrong put all his trust in O'Neill , just as the chairman of yesteryear put their trust in the likes of Brian Clough. Had the controls come in much sooner as suggested ( hindsight being an exact science) Randy would have come under sever criticism from the fans particularly as MON had delivered a 6-6-6 despite a sub opinion from some fans of the doubt of the substance of his style of football being of a sustainable type.

 

Of course there have been managers since who have contributed to our demise, but equally and without prejudice, Randy give them their moments to prove themselves as everyone would expect otherwise what was the point of recruiting them.

 

My opinion of it all is this.

 

We have appointed Managers and managers have bought players that we have simply got little return from in the main, sure there have some exceptions but in percentage terms we have been on the wrong side of good.

 

You can blame who you like, but some have had more time than others to have made a mark on this club for the better and that surely, must be factored in to your opinion.

 

Some ( i.e manager/owner)have had more direct effect to things on the pitch and that too should be factored in to your opinion.

 

However, Trent, I do accept your point that the owner does a have a responsibility to create the right conditions for a manager to operate in, I'm just hoping you can see the point that a managers poor trading in the transfer market (or equally failing on the training ground to blend) over a period of time can have a profound effect on the owners pocket and his ability to believe in the managers ability to trade....after all he is only human too ( well maybe some would disagree on that)

 

 

There is a vast difference between putting complete trust in a manager and getting carried away and allowing them to build a club on a completely unsustainable wage base which is what he did.

 

It isn't hindsight to say that the club should be run in a sustainable way (either through income or a continuing ability/willingness to fund privately) its just common sense. We should have tried to grow steadily over a period of time but Randy was seemingly in a rush, most likely as he always intended to cash out in 10 years and thought he could get us to CL level before selling at a tidy profit.

 

I absolutely agree with you about the impact (positive or negative) of managers on the financial position of a club, no question about that, but I'm sure equally you can see the impact Lerner's decisions have had on the platform from which they make those decisions and the limitations therefore placed upon them i.e. reducing wage bills and making decisions on players because of it.

 

The irony is that Lerner is now probably running the club in the right way, the problem is the damage has largely been done over the last 4 years and there are question marks about the managers ability to do any more than simply survive in this league.

 

Anyway, I think we agree more than we disagree and the part you thought we disagreed on, i.e. the impact of managers on the financial position of a club we in fact agree on.

 

 

 

we have success....I find it hard to disagree with that.....not that i was looking to try and disagree.

 

 

I love VT. We went from the above interesting and detailed discussion,

 

to this:

 

Just **** man up and sack this useless word removed you word removed!

[VillanousOne]

I think Lerner lost so much money on Houllier and McCleish and on the billy b*g b*llocks wages and transfers strategies under those managers and MON, that i don't even think relegation would get rid of Lambert. 

 

There is a skewed uneven if not slighltly honourable... yet very definitely misplaced long term plan in place here, keep Lambert long enough and suddenly all the pain and hard work will pay off and he'll be like Moyes at Everton and we'll be a top 8 side again. The reality is 50 years wouldn't make that happen.

[BG_Villa_Fan]

Yes he gave 'ONeil' the run of the club who financially killed us off. Now we are still in recovery. 

 

That would have been true if the austerity measures were started after MON left, however, the biggest problem is the outrageous spending continued for 2 more years after MON had gone. This is reflected in the accounts as well. Only after Lambert was hired most of the bad spending was done with, so I'd put the blame on the spending 90% on Lerner and only 10% on managers who buy 20+ mil players that cannot be given away for free now. 

[DCJonah]

Yes he gave 'ONeil' the run of the club who financially killed us off. Now we are still in recovery.

That would have been true if the austerity measures were started after MON left, however, the biggest problem is the outrageous spending continued for 2 more years after MON had gone. This is reflected in the accounts as well. Only after Lambert was hired most of the bad spending was done with, so I'd put the blame on the spending 90% on Lerner and only 10% on managers who buy 20+ mil players that cannot be given away for free now.

A very good point.

Maybe we were unlucky with houllier getting ill or maybe he wasn't the right appointment. But we've spent a decent amount until Lambert arrived. We should have been in a stronger position but because of the decisions made by the owner we aren't.

[DelboyVilla]

 

 

Yes he gave 'ONeil' the run of the club who financially killed us off. Now we are still in recovery.

That would have been true if the austerity measures were started after MON left, however, the biggest problem is the outrageous spending continued for 2 more years after MON had gone. This is reflected in the accounts as well. Only after Lambert was hired most of the bad spending was done with, so I'd put the blame on the spending 90% on Lerner and only 10% on managers who buy 20+ mil players that cannot be given away for free now.

A very good point.

Maybe we were unlucky with houllier getting ill or maybe he wasn't the right appointment. But we've spent a decent amount until Lambert arrived. We should have been in a stronger position but because of the decisions made by the owner we aren't.

 

 

 

As I have said before we employed managers without thinking about playing styles and philosopies. Lerner and Faulkner stupidily thought that going from MON to Houliier to McLeish to Lambert was not as disjointed a recruitment policy. This is where money got wasted and we ended up with players the next manager didn't want? Then there was Ireland who was signed with no manager in place because Lerner was so desparate to get his mitts on the Milner money!

[TRO]

 

 

 

In a typical business model in a normal industry the chairman would have far more control over finances along with his trusty FD than happens in football

 

The problem with football is it all centres around the ability in the transfer market and that responsibility lies with the manager and his staff.

 

I still maintain over the last 8 years if the quality of player had of been achieved in sufficient quantity as opposed to one or two...the financial climate of our club would have been different.

 

It wasn't that we spent too much money of fee's and wages.....it was the fact we never got any return in performance from TOO MANY players.

 

 

See, I disagree here because I think you are merging two distinct things into one.

 

Yes businesses are run that way but so too are football clubs, or they should be because they are sadly first and foremost businesses these days. Now granted most aren't run at a profit but all need to be run in a sustainable way, we weren't and that was entirely Lerner's fault not O'Neill's.

 

I doubt O'Neill knew what we could or couldn't afford to be spending and it wasn't his job to worry about that it was his job to try and build a winning football side. Yes there needs to be some thoughts about sustainability from the manager, through those signings made but the financial management of the club is not the managers responsibility.

 

You won't see me disagree about your general point about how money was spent by a succession of managers, you certainly won't see me defend O'Neill a man I wanted rid of at least 12 months before he went. I agree if managers performances had been better we would have done better financially.

 

But I think your last line in the part of your post above is completely and utterly wrong as is shown by the financial results of the club. Even when we were finishing 6th we were spending too much on wages relative to our income, it wasn't sustainable, it was never ever sustainable without the financial support of Lerner which he decided to stop giving to the same extent after the first 4 years.

 

 

Randy Lerner right or wrong put all his trust in O'Neill , just as the chairman of yesteryear put their trust in the likes of Brian Clough. Had the controls come in much sooner as suggested ( hindsight being an exact science) Randy would have come under sever criticism from the fans particularly as MON had delivered a 6-6-6 despite a sub opinion from some fans of the doubt of the substance of his style of football being of a sustainable type.

 

Of course there have been managers since who have contributed to our demise, but equally and without prejudice, Randy give them their moments to prove themselves as everyone would expect otherwise what was the point of recruiting them.

 

My opinion of it all is this.

 

We have appointed Managers and managers have bought players that we have simply got little return from in the main, sure there have some exceptions but in percentage terms we have been on the wrong side of good.

 

You can blame who you like, but some have had more time than others to have made a mark on this club for the better and that surely, must be factored in to your opinion.

 

Some ( i.e manager/owner)have had more direct effect to things on the pitch and that too should be factored in to your opinion.

 

However, Trent, I do accept your point that the owner does a have a responsibility to create the right conditions for a manager to operate in, I'm just hoping you can see the point that a managers poor trading in the transfer market (or equally failing on the training ground to blend) over a period of time can have a profound effect on the owners pocket and his ability to believe in the managers ability to trade....after all he is only human too ( well maybe some would disagree on that)

 

 

There is a vast difference between putting complete trust in a manager and getting carried away and allowing them to build a club on a completely unsustainable wage base which is what he did.

 

It isn't hindsight to say that the club should be run in a sustainable way (either through income or a continuing ability/willingness to fund privately) its just common sense. We should have tried to grow steadily over a period of time but Randy was seemingly in a rush, most likely as he always intended to cash out in 10 years and thought he could get us to CL level before selling at a tidy profit.

 

I absolutely agree with you about the impact (positive or negative) of managers on the financial position of a club, no question about that, but I'm sure equally you can see the impact Lerner's decisions have had on the platform from which they make those decisions and the limitations therefore placed upon them i.e. reducing wage bills and making decisions on players because of it.

 

The irony is that Lerner is now probably running the club in the right way, the problem is the damage has largely been done over the last 4 years and there are question marks about the managers ability to do any more than simply survive in this league.

 

Anyway, I think we agree more than we disagree and the part you thought we disagreed on, i.e. the impact of managers on the financial position of a club we in fact agree on.

 

 

 

we have success....I find it hard to disagree with that.....not that i was looking to try and disagree.

 

 

I love VT. We went from the above interesting and detailed discussion,

 

to this:

 

Just **** man up and sack this useless word removed you word removed!

 

 

I guess we are all guilty of having moments when you want to say a lot, but can't be bothered to type.

 

hey.... we are all hurting.

Edited November 3, 2014 by TRO

[YLN]

RL is going to ruin this club. Villa spent £7.5m this summer. A team that really looked doomed at times last season spent the least. And we're expecting different results? Spending 7.5 million pounds doesn't allow a team stand still in this league. It's Championship spending. People complaining about Paul Lambert, and I'm one of them, not because I think he's incompetent, but mostly because I think he's the happiest patsy I've ever seen. Lerner won the lotto last year because the team wasn't relegated and this year he might win it again if there are three worse teams than us in the league. Are we spending the TV money on paying him back for the MON years, or are we spending it on Darren Bent's wages? 

 

Everyone hates the puppet, but no one is shouting abuse at the puppeteer who is responsible for the things he's saying. It's strange. Yeah it looks like we can't do anything about it, and our lobotomised manager is happy to perpetuate this idea of helplessness and it's pathetic, but there's a man at the top who is mining this club and we're all faffing about letting him, and directing the anger towards Lambert, who is picking up a sizeable paycheck every week, and his reputation is intact. No wonder he seems so placid in interviews. Lambert's hands are tied in the transfer market, but fortunately he doesn't need them because he's getting sucked off under the table by his big contract.

 

Aston Villa are on their knees nearly apologising to the big teams for showing up to play them because it was so inevitable that they'd win. Aston Villa. Have you seen our stadium? Have you seen our big trophy case? We used to be a club that was expected to be in the top 6. The goalposts have moved, but we're still playing on the same grassy pitch as Everton and West Ham. Why then compared to them have we been this sort of sickly Tiny Tim character, while Everton and West Ham, and bloody Southampton are daring to knock on the doors of the top 4 and say it's **** Christmas day and Bob Cratchit is not coming in. 

 

Paul the meek is only a symptom of the problem. Lerner is the disease. He is an inept owner who wants his money back. Lambert is also motivated by greed. Any other manager would have walked at this stage. This is why Pulis will never get the Aston Villa job, nor will Moyes. It's why Martinez turned us down. It's why McLeish was given a season. We were looking for someone without any balls. We have the manager we deserve for not publicly embarrassing Lerner for his ineptitude. Every year he's here, he's clawing back the money owed to him by the club for the MON years. That's where the TV money goes I reckon. And if eventually we go down, he'll still be able to cash in on a club with a big stadium, big fanbase and a big history, and not lose out on too much in terms of club price, considering that the club at the moment is like a car teetering over the edge of a cliff - Even though it still runs and theoretically can get you from A to B, once you get in it's very likely going to drop.

 

TL;DR Lerner is a word removed and should be told as such. Lambert would only get replaced with someone probably less capable and more amenable to Lerner's grand plan of mining the club dry.

[Richard]

Yillan,  I sort of agree with the thrust of that post but not much of the detail of it!

[PieFacE]

How long til we start taking £ signs down to Villa Park? Or do we just accept that untill he goes nothing will change? 

[Richard]

He'd think it was a UKIP rally

[Dodgyknees]

He'd think it was a UKIP rally

He'd hide in his bedroom again.

[TRO]

RL is going to ruin this club. Villa spent £7.5m this summer. A team that really looked doomed at times last season spent the least. And we're expecting different results? Spending 7.5 million pounds doesn't allow a team stand still in this league. It's Championship spending. People complaining about Paul Lambert, and I'm one of them, not because I think he's incompetent, but mostly because I think he's the happiest patsy I've ever seen. Lerner won the lotto last year because the team wasn't relegated and this year he might win it again if there are three worse teams than us in the league. Are we spending the TV money on paying him back for the MON years, or are we spending it on Darren Bent's wages? 

 

Everyone hates the puppet, but no one is shouting abuse at the puppeteer who is responsible for the things he's saying. It's strange. Yeah it looks like we can't do anything about it, and our lobotomised manager is happy to perpetuate this idea of helplessness and it's pathetic, but there's a man at the top who is mining this club and we're all faffing about letting him, and directing the anger towards Lambert, who is picking up a sizeable paycheck every week, and his reputation is intact. No wonder he seems so placid in interviews. Lambert's hands are tied in the transfer market, but fortunately he doesn't need them because he's getting sucked off under the table by his big contract.

 

Aston Villa are on their knees nearly apologising to the big teams for showing up to play them because it was so inevitable that they'd win. Aston Villa. Have you seen our stadium? Have you seen our big trophy case? We used to be a club that was expected to be in the top 6. The goalposts have moved, but we're still playing on the same grassy pitch as Everton and West Ham. Why then compared to them have we been this sort of sickly Tiny Tim character, while Everton and West Ham, and bloody Southampton are daring to knock on the doors of the top 4 and say it's **** Christmas day and Bob Cratchit is not coming in. 

 

Paul the meek is only a symptom of the problem. Lerner is the disease. He is an inept owner who wants his money back. Lambert is also motivated by greed. Any other manager would have walked at this stage. This is why Pulis will never get the Aston Villa job, nor will Moyes. It's why Martinez turned us down. It's why McLeish was given a season. We were looking for someone without any balls. We have the manager we deserve for not publicly embarrassing Lerner for his ineptitude. Every year he's here, he's clawing back the money owed to him by the club for the MON years. That's where the TV money goes I reckon. And if eventually we go down, he'll still be able to cash in on a club with a big stadium, big fanbase and a big history, and not lose out on too much in terms of club price, considering that the club at the moment is like a car teetering over the edge of a cliff - Even though it still runs and theoretically can get you from A to B, once you get in it's very likely going to drop.

 

TL;DR Lerner is a word removed and should be told as such. Lambert would only get replaced with someone probably less capable and more amenable to Lerner's grand plan of mining the club dry.

 

its hard to disagree....it seems they are all using each other as a "get out jail" card.

[Kingman]

You would like to think Mr Fox is poking Mr Lerner daily with the "Relegation reminder stick" thats tucked away in the corner of his office.

 

The compensation for paying Lambert off will only be a couple of quid loss, Compared to the Multi-Multi-Multi Millions we will loose from the TV money, sponsors ect.

[villan501]

Well randy delph rumours of wanting out vlaar still not signed its gunna be expensive next summer it will cost at least 12mil to replace them two. Cleverley might decide your club is as shit as he thought before he changed his mind and came on loan. If your still not interested you better get interested because this is so bad if jan goes wrong you will have crowds of sub 20k.

[YLN]

The compensation for paying Lambert off will only be a couple of quid loss, Compared to the Multi-Multi-Multi Millions we will loose from the TV money, sponsors ect.

Hello David. Come on in here. This is my office yes. Isn't it nice? I'm rarely here, so it's quite clean. Anyway so let's see. You're here to apply for the Aston Zilla job.

 

The Villa job yeah.

 

Yes Villa. What did I say?

 

Zilla

 

Oh right. Sorry I meant Villa. Anyway, so do you want the job? 

 

Well you called me and asked if I wanted to come in and talk about it.

 

Right. So I did. So I'm thinking of getting rid of Paul. He's upsetting the fans or something, and the team aren't getting wins. It's like what happened with that other Scottish man. McLeish. You sort of look like him. hahaha

 

Ha well I assure you I'm not him.

 

If you are and you don't tell me, it's entrapment.

 

Well Randy the thing is the team aren't playing well.

 

Yes. Let's talk shop.

 

Yes.. well and I think you probably need a change. Now if I am to take this job, I'll need about £30 million to spend in the January transfer window to keep them up, and then another £30 million to spend in the summer on getting this team challenging up the table. 

 

Right. But Paul says he only needs £4 million pounds. He says all sorts of nice things you know. Have you heard his interviews? He has a lovely way with words.

 

That may be true Randy, but I'll be looking to put my own stamp on this team. I'm not prepared to take the job if I'm not promised transfer funds. I have a reputation to keep here.

 

OK. Well thanks for coming in David. 

 

I was chatting to Tony Pulis in the hall. He's wearing a towel you know. He's just wearing a towel. And you know what that means. He's not a big fan of chairmen who won't spend money on the team. And he thinks you're wasting his time. So I wish you the best of luck.

 

Eh you can just tell him we'll be sticking with Paul after all. Performances have improved recently and he's had a lot of bad luck with injuries.

 

Why don't you tell him yourself? Tony he's ready for you now, come on in. I didn't take the job because he's just looking for someone to just babysit the club until it sells while he spends absolutely no money, but I'm sure you two will have a lovely chat. Bye Randy

 

*Randy on phone* - Paul it's happening again.... Yes this time it's Tony Pulis... Chasing me around my desk... Come quick.... Bring Benteke.

[Nabby]

£25mil plus outlay on Bent , Vlaar and Delph who all look to be leaving on a free at end of the season.

 

 

Our outlay is compromised by the fact we have a complete inability to generate funds through player sales in the last 3/4 years.Southampton are not richer than us they just purchased well and sold on for profit and rebuilt.Simply fact is under Lerner our player purchasing has been woeful for value for money and to generate funds.We did make profits on Young ,Downing , Milner but they were all purchased for high fee's in the first place (in Milner's case given the utter failure of Ireland it could be argued we made nothing on that deal) .So the biggest profit we have made was on Barry who we paid little for in the first place.

 

As was  said from early on the board/Randy lacked the knowledge to run a football club and now have left us clinging on to being a Premier League club below clubs who were in the 3rd tier a few years ago.

[TRO]

£25mil plus outlay on Bent , Vlaar and Delph who all look to be leaving on a free at end of the season.

 

 

Our outlay is compromised by the fact we have a complete inability to generate funds through player sales in the last 3/4 years.Southampton are not richer than us they just purchased well and sold on for profit and rebuilt.Simply fact is under Lerner our player purchasing has been woeful for value for money and to generate funds.We did make profits on Young ,Downing , Milner but they were all purchased for high fee's in the first place (in Milner's case given the utter failure of Ireland it could be argued we made nothing on that deal) .So the biggest profit we have made was on Barry who we paid little for in the first place.

 

As was  said from early on the board/Randy lacked the knowledge to run a football club and now have left us clinging on to being a Premier League club below clubs who were in the 3rd tier a few years ago.

 

 

we have spent a kings ransom on players we have got nothing out of....there is nothing in place that would suggest that if we did get funds that would supposedly purchase quality players.... we would find a way of signing duffers.

 

It really is a depressing scenario

 

I would like to see the back of both of them...Lerner is damaged goods and Lambert has just scored off the back of that.

[Tayls]

BRING BACK O'NEILL!!!

[villan_007]

Christ I long for a time when we can all chat about something new and exciting! Can't wait for this guy to leave and it all be over.

[Dr_Pangloss]

We're just an utter disgrace. Utter piece of shit for an owner, a clown for a manager, and a squad full of absolute, plodding shite.

 

It's absolutely depressing to see what this football club has become.