blandy Posted November 24, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2012 ... since we have no chance of qualifying for the Champion's League anytime soon under the present regime Apologies for quoting and then changing the direction a bit, but I look at it like this, whoever the owner is. Basically I want the club to do everything within it's gift to do the best it can on the pitch. That's what Aston Villa (and other clubs) is for. I want the people to do the best they can, within their abilities to be as good as they can be at their role, on the pitch and off it. Under previous owners (plural) that clearly wasn't always the case. Some of them feathered their own nests, for example, or used the club to boost their need for limelight, or positions in the FA council. Anyway, we're here now, and the lie of the land is totally different to previous times. Specifically in two aspects or 3 aspects - the Oil and Gas billionaires with bottomless funds at the likes of Chelsea and Man CIty, the Champions League money being embedded into the top Clubs and them being protected by the Europa league stopping those just below from taking a top 4 place from them, and finally, on the other side of the coin by the similar gulf between Prem TV money and Football league TV money. Villa and Randy Lerner does not have Oil billions, so we're hugely handicapped as a result compared to Chelsea or Man City. Ditto Arsenal (150 million shirt sponsor deal just announced) or Man U. So champions league right now is not realistically likely any time soon. Europa league is a joke, and a handicap. Given all that, given that football is broken so badly, what can the club do and what should it do. Really the two things I want are to entertain me, and make me proud. And from the ownership point, to not drop out of the league and lose all that money. On that basis, and it's a depressing one, what the club is doing is sensible. Not paying daft wages, having a team of hungry players out there. Developing and building it's youth system. The difficult thing is staying up while doing that. If they do, then they'll be set fair for the future. If they don't then relegation will not mean the end of the club, it will not mean total wipe out, but it would mean Randy would be in trouble, because any chance of recovering the money put in would be hugely diminished, as the revenue wouldn't be there to pay back the loans, and the money he has put in via converting his own cash into shares would be gone as the selling price for the club would be a lot less. What we're seeing, I think, is effectively a significant gamble, a kind of kill or cure experiemnt, where we've seen Villa as an established Prem club, quite rapidly replace nearly all it's players with youngsters from outside the prem and the odd import from Holland or Belgium, in a bid to get wages under control, change the ethos of the team and look to be all about youth. So is that "all we could be doing" to be the best we can be? It's hard to answer. The commitment to that plan seems total. I think they have the right manager to follow it. If we stay up, that'll be pretty much things sorted for improvement from here-on in. We'd be much healthier at the end of the season than the end of last season. We'd have a team full of players with future prospects for getting better still, having financial sell on value (unlike what has been the case for the past few years, where most players have reduced in value, (with the odd exception).). It's pleasing to see the team collectively being united and hard working, and at times perform well, but it's also alarming the rest of the time to see the level of niäivity and inexperience lead to conceding goals and losing games. I know I'd rather be watching Ashley Westwood on his (I'm guesing) 15 grand a week, than Steve Sidwell on 45 grand a week. or Vallr on 30 than Collins or Dunne on 40 or 50k, and Lowton on his wages than Beye or Hutton on theirs. The same throughout the side. I just know that what I see now from the players is much more akin to what I expect than what I've seen in the past few years. But the imperative to get some wins is building all the time, and some growing up fast is needed. We also need a change of luck from officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Anyone else get reminded of the 'they tuk urr jerbz' guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Apologies for quoting and then changing the direction a bit, but I look at it like this, whoever the owner is. Basically I want the club to do everything within it's gift to do the best it can on the pitch. That's what Aston Villa (and other clubs) is for. I want the people to do the best they can, within their abilities to be as good as they can be at their role, on the pitch and off it. Under previous owners (plural) that clearly wasn't always the case. Some of them feathered their own nests, for example, or used the club to boost their need for limelight, or positions in the FA council. Anyway, we're here now, and the lie of the land is totally different to previous times. Specifically in two aspects or 3 aspects - the Oil and Gas billionaires with bottomless funds at the likes of Chelsea and Man CIty, the Champions League money being embedded into the top Clubs and them being protected by the Europa league stopping those just below from taking a top 4 place from them, and finally, on the other side of the coin by the similar gulf between Prem TV money and Football league TV money. Villa and Randy Lerner does not have Oil billions, so we're hugely handicapped as a result compared to Chelsea or Man City. Ditto Arsenal (150 million shirt sponsor deal just announced) or Man U. So champions league right now is not realistically likely any time soon. Europa league is a joke, and a handicap. Given all that, given that football is broken so badly, what can the club do and what should it do. Really the two things I want are to entertain me, and make me proud. And from the ownership point, to not drop out of the league and lose all that money. On that basis, and it's a depressing one, what the club is doing is sensible. Not paying daft wages, having a team of hungry players out there. Developing and building it's youth system. The difficult thing is staying up while doing that. If they do, then they'll be set fair for the future. If they don't then relegation will not mean the end of the club, it will not mean total wipe out, but it would mean Randy would be in trouble, because any chance of recovering the money put in would be hugely diminished, as the revenue wouldn't be there to pay back the loans, and the money he has put in via converting his own cash into shares would be gone as the selling price for the club would be a lot less. What we're seeing, I think, is effectively a significant gamble, a kind of kill or cure experiemnt, where we've seen Villa as an established Prem club, quite rapidly replace nearly all it's players with youngsters from outside the prem and the odd import from Holland or Belgium, in a bid to get wages under control, change the ethos of the team and look to be all about youth. So is that "all we could be doing" to be the best we can be? It's hard to answer. The commitment to that plan seems total. I think they have the right manager to follow it. If we stay up, that'll be pretty much things sorted for improvement from here-on in. We'd be much healthier at the end of the season than the end of last season. We'd have a team full of players with future prospects for getting better still, having financial sell on value (unlike what has been the case for the past few years, where most players have reduced in value, (with the odd exception).). It's pleasing to see the team collectively being united and hard working, and at times perform well, but it's also alarming the rest of the time to see the level of niäivity and inexperience lead to conceding goals and losing games. I know I'd rather be watching Ashley Westwood on his (I'm guesing) 15 grand a week, than Steve Sidwell on 45 grand a week. or Vallr on 30 than Collins or Dunne on 40 or 50k, and Lowton on his wages than Beye or Hutton on theirs. The same throughout the side. I just know that what I see now from the players is much more akin to what I expect than what I've seen in the past few years. But the imperative to get some wins is building all the time, and some growing up fast is needed. We also need a change of luck from officials. Outstanding Post - as always tbf Blandy. Though something went drastically wrong in the spelling of Vlaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 Some good points Blandy. You mention some of our worst high earners over the last few years and say you prefer to watch some of our young players on low wages. Which I partly agree with but are these the only 2 options? Do we have to either have average players earning money they don't deserve or young players on low wages? Surely there's an Inbetween that a club like ours can realistically aim for. I don't agree with the whole idea that as long as the person is doing their best then that's fine. Heskey gave the best of his ability to the club and I didn't want him wearing the shirt. Mcleish managed the team to the best of his ability and I don't think any fan would argue that he should have remained and supported because of that. So in that sense I don't see why this attitude shouldn't be the same when viewing the owner. You mention the Europa league being a joke and a handicap, I agree but it will be interesting to see what those who have always used the Moscow game as a stick to beat MoN with think. I'd be interested in reading how you'd view Lerner if we did get relegated Blandy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 I'm definitely with you on that Blandy - well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 I want the people to do the best they can, within their abilities to be as good as they can be at their role, on the pitch and off it. How come this kind of thinking is only ever applied to Randy Lerner? If people feel this way why aren't all people employed by Aston Villa judged in the same way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 24, 2012 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2012 Outstanding Post - as always tbf Blandy. Though something went drastically wrong in the spelling of Vlaar Thanks and yes, my keyboard must be defective Some good points Blandy. You mention some of our worst high earners over the last few years and say you prefer to watch some of our young players on low wages. Which I partly agree with but are these the only 2 options? Do we have to either have average players earning money they don't deserve or young players on low wages? Surely there's an Inbetween that a club like ours can realistically aim for. I don't agree with the whole idea that as long as the person is doing their best then that's fine. Heskey gave the best of his ability to the club and I didn't want him wearing the shirt. Mcleish managed the team to the best of his ability and I don't think any fan would argue that he should have remained and supported because of that. So in that sense I don't see why this attitude shouldn't be the same when viewing the owner. You mention the Europa league being a joke and a handicap, I agree but it will be interesting to see what those who have always used the Moscow game as a stick to beat MoN with think. I'd be interested in reading how you'd view Lerner if we did get relegated Blandy. I think on the doing their best point, that re, say, Heskey, it's not Heskey that would be to blame - as you say, he did his best. Though whether signing him and then various managers playing him in midfield or wherever was "doing their best" would be my point. for example McLeish playing him in midfield v Spurs was not McLeish doing his best. It was an embarrassment, that. I don't think McLeish was doing his best. I genuinely don't. He started off doing his best, but after a few months he became, IMO, handicapped from doing it, by the circs. I have said before on a human level I have sympathy with him, and he seems like a decent man, but he was just the wrong choice, in the same way that Heskey's continued selection was often the wrong choice. As for my views on Randy - he's made some awful decisions and these tend to overshadow the good. Let's hope we don't go down, and I don't have to form a view on him based on that event. Basically I think he has good motives and intentions and has done a lot of good. I also think he's been niäive, and could have done with better advice, and seeking better advice. Given where we are, like I said what's currently happening is like his big experiement. If ti works, then he'll be due a lot of credit for it working out. If it fails, he'll get remorseless criticism, I guess. But what he's aiming to get to is the right thing, I believe. The point about not just "either/or old players or young players is right. It looks like we need, in one or two positions, some experience and leadership. I think everyone knows this, from Lambert to the fans and players themselves. It's finding and getting that player(s) that's the hard part. How come this kind of thinking is only ever applied to Randy Lerner? If people feel this way why aren't all people employed by Aston Villa judged in the same way? It isn't, or at least not by me. I specifically wrote "I want the people to do the best they can, within their abilities to be as good as they can be at their role, on the pitch and off it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Good posts Blandy. I agree with your take on things. I think most fans would think with hinsight that RL was probably very naive to give MON the freedom he did in the early days and most of our problems start back then. Unfortunately correcting those problems takes time and is painful as we are now finding. The McLeish appointment was bizarre but I think we ended up with him by default. A friend of mine who is involved in football management said at the time that Moyes was the man the club wanted and we thought we had got him as did the football world apparently. Martinez blew us out and so we worked our way down the list to McLeish who was clearly a panic appointment which was another mistake. We have had to start again with new foundations, its that simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted December 3, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted December 3, 2012 it's also not impossible to break into the top 4, just incredibly difficult. chievo verona did it back when serie a had all the money. in fact they were more handicapped becuase the tv money back then in serie a was negotiated on a club by club basis, meaning juve, milan and inter got the most by far and littel chievo got shafted, even when finishing in the CL places. personally i think the only way we can progress is the project we have started now, just lashing cash at it is not within our means and is the reason why we have had to tear it all down and start again. the tearing down bit isn't finished either to be fair. dunne, warnock, hutton, given, ireland and bent will all go i think. if not in jan then in the summer. we have a 42,000 capacity stadium that isn't full every home game liek some other clubs in the division. firstly we need to get this young and hungry team to win a lot more than it loses at home sweating blood and entertaining. if we can get to that stage we won't be in danger of the drop anymore and will start to see more full houses and more revenue from both tv money in league position and increased attendences etc. if PL is the man for the miracle and he does construct a young side that can compete with the top 6 in a couple of years then we coudl be in for quite a ride. in our favour is that the tv money is shared fairly, if we did manage top 6 again a few times with a wage bill less than half of what we had the last time we did it and the increase in the revenue, we would be in a very very good position to kick on from thereas it would be sustainable growth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis_B Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 More money in league position simply means more money in the pockets of agents and players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Seeing as Lerner gets an earful when we are struggling, I think it only fair that he gets a tip of the hat when we're winning. Well done, Randy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Still a way to go yet for Lerner I'm afraid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samjp26 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Thank you Randy for bringing in Lambert and giving him the backing to purchase the players he wanted. I'd also like to tip my hat for backing the purchase of Benteke who was signed for a fee that a team with 'no money to spend', as many press outlets described us as, could afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Finally made a good decision to hire Lambert but doesn't make up for all the mistakes just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samjp26 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Finally made a good decision to hire Lambert but doesn't make up for all the mistakes just yet. Damn right he doesn't, still needs a kick in for bringing in he who shall not be named. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaForever1970 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 He should be perfect obviously! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Still a way to go yet for Lerner I'm afraid I'm with Richard. He got it spot on with Lambert and although I didn't think a 17mill net spend over the summer was anywhere near enough I'd now like to think that he will give Lambert some decent backing in January and over the summer so we can start to build on what are looking like some very decent foundations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted December 16, 2012 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2012 I still don't think he is here for the long term and I think his on going level of investment will reflect that. We will only spend what we generate through revenue, thankfully with a manager like Lambert that might not be as big an issue as it might otherwise be. He got something right with appointing Lambert but a stopped clock is right twice a day. Long long long way to go before I revise my view on Lerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 He should be perfect obviously! no, just make better decisions than he has done in the last three plus years 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I think we'll be better placed to judge the "new" Lerner when we have seen the club's buying and selling activity over the next couple of seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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