The Randy Lerner thread

[Tayls]

I think this is probably one of the best questions since my time on VT.

Another poster in a different thread stated fairly that our objective should be to get away from our previous four year cycle with average players on extortionate unsustainable wages. He was right, but i pointed out that if Lambert's philosophy of buying younger players from lower leagues and on the continent is successful and we do indeed pull away from the trap door, how long do you think it will be before players such as Benteke and Westwood will be cherry picked?

We are not Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal or Man City who can keep their younger players happy with the possibility of silverware or big wages so if they are successful they will leave and Lambert will replace those young players with more young players and the cycle starts again. While this continues, what chance do we have of any success? Are we to become another Crewe?

Its all very well and good to say that we are going to build a new vibrant young team but they simply aren't going to stay with us long enough to build a successful dynasty here. We won't pay enough and we won't be successful enough to keep them.

The only way i can see us ever gaining any success again is by implementing a juxtaposition of the two. Spending the right amount of money on experienced quality in the 26-30 range while introducing the younger players in and around that.

Lambert's philosophy might get us mid table mediocrity but we should and expect more from our future than that.

I think the solution is simple - find the core, have an awesome season and surprise a few people by finishing 4th. That is how you keep the better players and then add to them with more quality from wherever to keep going forward.

That is not to say that we won't lose our key players along the way, but it is important to keep going until, actually, we have something and just might be able to upset a few people.

We almost had that... Almost. If we had got 4th in one of those seasons where we finished 6th under MON, I think our conversations on here would be very different.

.....we start again, but be a little bit more intelligent with money/wages along the way.

[Big_John_10]

Thank god it's so black and white.

We get all this money overnight I sure and have no debts to sort out.

**** it lets just spend spend spend, that never goes wrong.

Pointless.

You keep assuming I'm asking for something I'm not.

You believe this is all we can afford. I don't.

I don't think we can only afford to just survive in the premier league.

[AvfcRigo82]

In a sense of the partial correctness in areas of your post you have the right thinking but the ending didn't quite match.

Another poster in a different thread stated fairly that our objective should be to get away from our previous four year cycle with average players on extortionate unsustainable wages. He was right, but i pointed out that if Lambert's philosophy of buying younger players from lower leagues and on the continent is successful and we do indeed pull away from the trap door, how long do you think it will be before players such as Benteke and Westwood will be cherry picked?

Valid point but it was not just based on this season but more the long term plan of the club. This would mean the players would not stay average very long.

Ok so if some players do turn out great and do go on to pastures new from time to time then it's thank you very much for your service and good luck.

- As long as we have a player already growing ready to fill there position or we buy a replacement for up to 1/2 the money we just made from that sale and the club keeps its climb for top half position cementage each year then I don't see what the problem is?

Let's look at it like this:

• We sign the average player > We train him, play him and make him the player he turns out to be while he helps us on the pitch to get results in the right direction.
  
• Player attracks interest from 'bigger club/challenges on offer'
  
• Bigger team buy player and we make a tidy profit on what we paid for them.
  
• It breeds us money that will help improve us as a team that allows us to sign more quality gems and the cycle goes on.
  

This is what happens in the business world of football in 2012, has been for years and will continue to be this way for years so we can get as lemon as we like about it but theres **** all we can do to change it. That's football in the 21st Century.

Let's say Arsenal. I will use this team as my example here.

Anelka, Reyes, Fabregas, Nasri, Van Persie, I could keep going - All 'cherry picked' if you like!

But!. Look at how much money these players arrived for at Arsenal and who where they? Then look at the time & service they contributed there and the amounts each of them all went to 'bigger clubs' for and the profit made! ..Yet Arsenal remain in the top 4 year upon year so it is not impossible at all and this is what Lerner is now planning on Lambert doing here and will back him to do this along with making a return along the way too.

We are not Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal or Man City who can keep their younger players happy with the possibility of silverware or big wages so if they are successful they will leave and Lambert will replace those young players with more young players and the cycle starts again. While this continues, what chance do we have of any success? Are we to become another Crewe?

Again let me remind you - it happens to the top four.. When Real or Barca come knocking even them teams get there players 'cherry picked'.

None of these teams can keep any younger player or older player happy because I tell you something when the bigger boys come knocking and start flashing the £££'s there as good as gone anyway.

Its all very well and good to say that we are going to build a new vibrant young team but they simply aren't going to stay with us long enough to build a successful dynasty here. We won't pay enough and we won't be successful enough to keep them.

Ronaldo and Beckham at Man Utd, Countless players at Arsenal and Chelsea and before too long Man City will be in there too. Yet it does not seem to affect these teams when there players go! Why? Because Man Utd and Arsenal have had there managers for well over 15 years each and have been allowed to build there 'Dynastys' while your Chelsea and Man City are trying more to 'Buy' success year on year but spunk millions in the air in the process.

I would rather take Wengers route because We are not going to follow the route of the latter 2 and I would hope we never do and I would like to say to those on here that want that to happen to go and stick on a Chelsea or Man City shirt because that sort of thing is not going to happen.

Joint founders of the football league yet we have some who want a sugar day of a chairman that will 'buy us success'. - William McGregor must be turning in his grave!

I would rather give Lambert the time and careful injections of cash and follow the path of Arsenal and what they built to get where they are now to be able to do what they do now to let him build the same thing here.

The only way i can see us ever gaining any success again is by implementing a juxtaposition of the two. Spending the right amount of money on experienced quality in the 26-30 range while introducing the younger players in and around that.

Lambert's philosophy might get us mid table mediocrity but we should and expect more from our future than that.

Your first half of this comment is sort of right but I still feel finding lower lge and european gems that have potiential to make profit on a stratagy to keep with.

I feel with your second part that Lambert will give us more than 'Mediocrity' but he needs the time, support and patience combined with the right amounts of cash to get us there. Then and only then is when we might just see we get more from our future than just 'Mediocrity'.

.

[danceoftheshamen]

In a sense of the partial correctness in areas of your post you have the right thinking but the ending didn't quite match.

Valid point but it was not just based on this season but more the long term plan of the club. This would mean the players would not stay average very long.

Ok so if some players do turn out great and do go on to pastures new from time to time then it's thank you very much for your service and good luck.

- As long as we have a player already growing ready to fill there position or we buy a replacement for up to 1/2 the money we just made from that sale and the club keeps its climb for top half position cementage each year then I don't see what the problem is?

Let's look at it like this:

• We sign the average player > We train him, play him and make him the player he turns out to be while he helps us on the pitch to get results in the right direction.
  
• Player attracks interest from 'bigger club/challenges on offer'
  
• Bigger team buy player and we make a tidy profit on what we paid for them.
  
• It breeds us money that will help improve us as a team that allows us to sign more quality gems and the cycle goes on.
  

This is what happens in the business world of football in 2012, has been for years and will continue to be this way for years so we can get as lemon as we like about it but theres **** all we can do to change it. That's football in the 21st Century.

Let's say Arsenal. I will use this team as my example here.

Anelka, Reyes, Fabregas, Nasri, Van Persie, I could keep going - All 'cherry picked' if you like!

But!. Look at how much money these players arrived for at Arsenal and who where they? Then look at the time & service they contributed there and the amounts each of them all went to 'bigger clubs' for and the profit made! ..Yet Arsenal remain in the top 4 year upon year so it is not impossible at all and this is what Lerner is now planning on Lambert doing here and will back him to do this along with making a return along the way too.

Again let me remind you - it happens to the top four.. When Real or Barca come knocking even them teams get there players 'cherry picked'.

None of these teams can keep any younger player or older player happy because I tell you something when the bigger boys come knocking and start flashing the £££'s there as good as gone anyway.

Ronaldo and Beckham at Man Utd, Countless players at Arsenal and Chelsea and before too long Man City will be in there too. Yet it does not seem to affect these teams when there players go! Why? Because Man Utd and Arsenal have had there managers for well over 15 years each and have been allowed to build there 'Dynastys' while your Chelsea and Man City are trying more to 'Buy' success year on year but spunk millions in the air in the process.

I would rather take Wengers route because We are not going to follow the route of the latter 2 and I would hope we never do and I would like to say to those on here that want that to happen to go and stick on a Chelsea or Man City shirt because that sort of thing is not going to happen.

Joint founders of the football league yet we have some who want a sugar day of a chairman that will 'buy us success'. - William McGregor must be turning in his grave!

I would rather give Lambert the time and careful injections of cash and follow the path of Arsenal and what they built to get where they are now to be able to do what they do now to let him build the same thing here.

Your first half of this comment is sort of right but I still feel finding lower lge and european gems that have potiential to make profit on a stratagy to keep with.

I feel with your second part that Lambert will give us more than 'Mediocrity' but he needs the time, support and patience combined with the right amounts of cash to get us there. Then and only then is when we might just see we get more from our future than just 'Mediocrity'.

.

Great post which really does put things into perspective.. All sounds good long term & i really hope we turn the corner & start climbing that table soon as i would love this to be the blueprint for the future & desperatley hope we don't get sucked down & PL gets ousted before it can all kick in proper etc... Do we think Randy would stick by PL regardless? Even if we did succumb to the dreaded relegation?

[TRO]

TRO, I think it will take more than a "bit of investment" to get us out of our current problems!

I can't fathom really why you always try so hard to downplay the only spell of successful football we have had this century and to minimise the deep crisis that Lerner has led us into through his financial mismanagement.

Briny, despite conceding that we are now worse I was never convinced by it. I am not convinced by a team that get results, but demonstrate little ball control....like Stoke, Sunderland etc.... blimey West Ham are 6th at present am i supposed to be impressed.

I get influenced by watching the game and despite a workmanlike culture i watched Ron Saunders troops get gradually better and better and better, they had method and were hard to beat, there was a massive sense of resolute from that team coupled with the ability to score, they had a winger that could deliver, they had a centre forward who could battle and score they had an inside forward who rarely conceded the ball, we had defenders who could defend and we had midfielders who despite their differences knew the task in hand....they were tough and durable and could get a result.

I used to say to my pals in those days ..Villa one up at home .....the game was all over.

There has been flaws in O'Neills tenure for all of those to see and I still say he was instrumental in terms of his transfer exploits for having us where we are today.What come afterward was worse granted, but in my view he started the rot, because in terms of decent funds he was the last manager to have enjoyed them.....the managers before had to deal with doug... so in terms of extra dough we have floundered.

[TRO]

Briny, despite conceding that we are now worse I was never convinced by it. I am not convinced by a team that get results, but demonstrate little ball control....like Stoke, Sunderland etc.... blimey West Ham are 6th at present am i supposed to be impressed.

I get influenced by watching the game and despite a workmanlike culture i watched Ron Saunders troops get gradually better and better and better, they had method and were hard to beat, there was a massive sense of resolute from that team coupled with the ability to score, they had a winger that could deliver, they had a centre forward who could battle and score they had an inside forward who rarely conceded the ball, we had defenders who could defend and we had midfielders who despite their differences knew the task in hand....they were tough and durable and could get a result.

I used to say to my pals in those days ..Villa one up at home .....the game was all over.

There has been flaws in O'Neills tenure for all of those to see and I still say he was instrumental in terms of his transfer exploits for having us where we are today.What come afterward was worse granted, but in my view he started the rot, because in terms of decent funds he was the last manager to have enjoyed them.....the managers before had to deal with doug... so in terms of extra dough we have floundered.

Ps Blimey Briny, Century is a bit selective considering we have only just started it....was that for effect.

[TRO]

In appriasing an owner I have always looked at the ability to provide funds, despite the debate of how much, I have always been more interested in the owner providing funds WHEN the manager wants them, NOT necessarily how much.

Every manager wants a kings ransom because it bails him out of poor recruiting.... every manager wants 2 more, because it is the nature of the beast.

I have always been loathe to take sides in fear of either one having a comfortable time of things.

If a manager has a poor time in the transfer market it is not surprising, if he has his purchasing curtailed, equally if ( Like wenger) he has a good record its not surprising the chairman falls over himslef to provide funds and openly encourages it.

The record dictates the state of play.

I feel a bit for Lerner, In general I think the buying has been poor.

[leviramsey]

Just the stark realisation that our initial tactic of spend spend spend to get into the CL had failed and we need to start again and be more sensible.

MON always did have a problem when it came to switching to plan B...

[VillaForever1970]

I don't think we can only afford to just survive in the premier league.

That's convenient, means that apart Lerner spending loads of cash you always have a (made up) reason to have a go. Regardless.

Pointless discussing with you Lerner is the bad guy, that is that.

[Big_John_10]

And vice versa.

You believe he can't afford any more so regardless of league position and points total you can alway defend what's happening.

[Stevo985]

I STILL don't know what you want Randy to do?

Spend more? Sell?

Earlier in the thread you said "spend consistently and sensibly". I think we're doing that. is it just a case of you think "sensibly" is more than he's currently spending (despite the accounts showing that's not the case at all)?

[AvfcRigo82]

That's convenient, means that apart Lerner spending loads of cash you always have a (made up) reason to have a go. Regardless.

Pointless discussing with you Lerner is the bad guy, that is that.

I see some are now cottoning on.

.

[Big_John_10]

I see some are now cottoning on.

.

Brilliant.

Do you not want to go and make some more assumptions and claim you're stating facts again?

That's was excellent.

[Big_John_10]

I STILL don't know what you want Randy to do?

Spend more? Sell?

Earlier in the thread you said "spend consistently and sensibly". I think we're doing that. is it just a case of you think "sensibly" is more than he's currently spending (despite the accounts showing that's not the case at all)?

I want the spending to increase, especially the wages so that we can sign more Benteke type players and less Bowery type players.

I'm not expecting a load of man city style spending, I want lambert to be provided with the funds to sign quality players.

This did not happen in the summer and we see ourselves sitting in 18th in the league. I hope this changes and lambert is provided with more in January.

I don't believe that what we spent in the summer was all this club can possibly afford.

I don't believe that a club our size can only afford to just survive

[AshVilla]

We need some of randy's 1 billion dollars this january for sure

I expect him to do what any self respected business man would do and protect his investment

[AvfcRigo82]

We need some of randy's 1 billion dollars this january for sure

I expect him to do what any self respected business man would do and protect his investment

Im sure he will protect it but throwing a billion dollars at it in one go won't protect it and proberly just make matters worse.

It's slowly slowly from here on in. Steady investment and the correct players that we need for the long term and not just fan appeasing quick fix's with a big name on stupid wages to offer **** all.

Been there done that no thanks!

.

[Kingfisher]

I don't believe that what we spent in the summer was all this club can possibly afford.

The information is available on the net, compile a league table of estimated club net spends for the premier league summer 2012 transfer window. See how we stack up against our rivals. It's a bugbear you're on, we want facts, because we're bored of hearing your opinion! lol.

I think our transfer spend was competitive, I can't be bothered finding out, but I'm not the one going on about it all the time. I think we will spend more in January.

On wages, I think we have a budget which is set against our income, therefore should be competitive.

[Big_John_10]

You think it's competitive because you believe all we can afford is to survive in this league. How many of our rivals had dropped from 6th to 16th? How many of those clubs needed as much as our squad?

We spent around £20 million on 7 players, that averages out less than £3 million per player. That's competitive? You think the money Westwood, Bowery, Lowton and Bennett will be on would be classed as competitive for most prem teams?

I'll ask again. Why did anyone want rid of Doug if we should all be happy with what's going on?

[Stevo985]

I want the spending to increase, especially the wages so that we can sign more Benteke type players and less Bowery type players.

I'm not expecting a load of man city style spending, I want lambert to be provided with the funds to sign quality players.

This did not happen in the summer and we see ourselves sitting in 18th in the league. I hope this changes and lambert is provided with more in January.

I don't believe that what we spent in the summer was all this club can possibly afford.

I don't believe that a club our size can only afford to just survive

Hooray!

Thanks for the answer.

That's fair enough. I disagree with the vast majority of it, but at least I have an answer now.

[Kingfisher]

You think it's competitive because you believe all we can afford is to survive in this league. How many of our rivals had dropped from 6th to 16th? How many of those clubs needed as much as our squad?

We spent around £20 million on 7 players, that averages out less than £3 million per player. That's competitive? You think the money Westwood, Bowery, Lowton and Bennett will be on would be classed as competitive for most prem teams?

Firstly, a budget based on income is not a flexible figure. If you need seven players or one player, it's the same. I think £20M as an arbitrary figure is competitive, I also think in the context of what we were building on it is enough to help us become more competitive. If it's sustainable and we continue to outspend our rivals, we should see an improvement year on year until we hit our ceiling.