U.S. Politics

[Davkaus]

I reckon you could go in to any care home at bingo time and hear saner discourse than you're likely to get out of these two. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Davkaus

[mjmooney]

In any sensible world, Biden would be relaxing in retirement. Yes, he's too old (and sadly, so is Bernie S). But is he preferable to Trump? You're damn right he is. 

[trom_borg]

55 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

So, this would be pure conjecture, a guess. But what would be your guess for why its 3 times more likely you’ll killed by the police if you’re black than if you’re white?

Do you see it as an education thing? A poverty thing? Luck? False statistics?

As soon as that incident started, he was 3 times more likely to die than I would have been in the same incident.

What’s your guess as to why that might be if skin colour is ruled out? Not something that can be proved, what’s your hunch?

 

 

I do think there is a very important reason for why not to connect single instances with the overall picture.

Firstly, the fact that its a 3 times higher chance of getting killed by a cop if youre black is a disturbing stat. I'd think that a part of that problem lies with the police themselves, racist individuals, poor training, macho culture and other factors attracting the wrong type of people with various degrees of conscious or unconscious levels of racism to a very consequential and important job.

But I believe it is even more due to socio-economic differences. These differences work as feedback loops as well, poverty and segregation leads to poor education which leads to more poverty and bigger differences ect, which leads to more crime and a bigger percentage of the male population in prison, which leads to more single moms and more poverty ect ect ect. And I think these class differences stems from history and the failings of the capitalist system to correct it and create equal opportunities. 

To start thinking about solving all of the above you need deep police reform as well as a reform of the economic and political system that perpetuate this. 

That is a monumental task, and I think its counterproductive to that goal to see any police killing of poc in light of racism and this 3x chance stat. If a person open fire on the police the chance is they'll get shot no matter what the colour of their skin is.

This is a very difficult debate with lots of emotion and I am worried that its developing towards a more binary state where nuance is a sign of treason or weakness to "your" political side. I see this as a recipe for escalating conflict rather than important reform

Edited June 16, 2020 by trom_borg

[villa4europe]

2 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

In such a bonkers police country as the US, if I got drunk, sat my ass down at a mickey d drive through, started fighting the police, steal their weapon, use it against them. I would expect to be shot. Doesn't surprise me the slightest and I just can't see it being anything to do with racism. And it's akward for me when it's used in this instance cause I think it drags away the importance of that discussion for those cases it actually matters. 

now put that in the context of what you actually see in the video

he doesn't expect to get shot because he doesn't expect to get arrested and he doesn't expect to get arrested because no one ever actually tells him what law he's broken

to paraphrase him he even says I will walk home because I don't want to break any laws....that is followed by the copper saying I don't think you are safe to drive...

if I was a black man in America would I accept popping down the station? hell no, guilty, innocent, evidence, no evidence, whatever the case may be there is a ridiculously high percentage chance that he would have ended up in jail, he's not simply being handcuffed and not understanding why but its ok it'll be cleared up afterwards

[Keyblade]

I don't think what happened to Brooks would have happened to a white man because for starters, they would have left the white man the hell alone. Perhaps if it got to the point of the arrest/resisting it might have ended the same (still doubt it) but it wouldn't have even got that far. They were trying to **** with the guy from the beginning of the interaction. I know belligerent police body language when I see it. That second guy that was called in only had one thing on his mind and that was to arrest. Reminds me about that Dave Chappelle bit on police brutality.

 

[bannedfromHandV]

3 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

now put that in the context of what you actually see in the video

he doesn't expect to get shot because he doesn't expect to get arrested and he doesn't expect to get arrested because no one ever actually tells him what law he's broken

to paraphrase him he even says I will walk home because I don't want to break any laws....that is followed by the copper saying I don't think you are safe to drive...

if I was a black man in America would I accept popping down the station? hell no, guilty, innocent, evidence, no evidence, whatever the case may be there is a ridiculously high percentage chance that he would have ended up in jail, he's not simply being handcuffed and not understanding why but its ok it'll be cleared up afterwards

You’re completely glossing over the fact that he was drink driving, for all we know if a toxicology report was done maybe something else too.
 

He obviously didn’t deserve to die for that but then that’s not why he was shot.

By your logic anyone found to be driving under the influence should be allowed to just park up and walk home, that’s just not how it works sorry.

[villa4europe]

Just now, bannedfromHandV said:

You’re completely glossing over the fact that he was drink driving, for all we know if a toxicology report was done maybe something else too.
 

He obviously didn’t deserve to die for that but then that’s not why he was shot.

By your logic anyone found to be driving under the influence should be allowed to just park up and walk home, that’s just not how it works sorry.

Not at all

If you're arresting him on suspicion of drink driving then tell him, you've blown over the limit, we think you were drink driving, I'm arresting you

Instead you have a cop spend 5 minutes being clever with him trying to trick him in to to incriminating himself by admitting he drove there drunk and talk to him about where he's going next being his mate and then grabbing him in an attempt to arrest him 

Its bad policing which is the whole point, it's the cop who has escalated the situation not the black guy 

That guy is completely oblivious to the fact that he is going to be arrested 

[chrisp65]

10 minutes ago, trom_borg said:

I do think there is a very important reason for why not to connect single instances with the overall picture.

Firstly, the fact that its a 3 times higher chance of getting killed by a cop if youre black is a disturbing stat. I'd think that a part of that problem lies with the police themselves, racist individuals, poor training, macho culture and other factors attracting the wrong type of people with various degrees of conscious or unconscious levels of racism to a very consequential and important job.

But I believe it is even more due to socio-economic differences. These differences work as feedback loops as well, poverty and segregation leads to poor education which leads to more poverty and bigger differences ect, which leads to more crime and a bigger percentage of the male population in prison, which leads to more single moms and more poverty ect ect ect. And I think these class differences stems from history and the failings of the capitalist system to correct it and create equal opportunities. 

To start thinking about solving all of the above you need deep police reform as well as a reform of the economic and political system that perpetuate this. 

That is a monumental task, and I think its counterproductive to that goal to see any police killing of poc in light of racism and this 3x chance stat. If a person open fire on the police the chance is they'll get shot no matter what the colour of their skin is.

This is a very difficult debate with lots of emotion and I am worried that its developing towards a more binary state where nuance is a sign of treason or weakness to "your" political side. I see this as a recipe for escalating conflict rather than important reform

I think I said a couple of pages ago that this was too muddy a case to pin any great actions on. It will always attract lots of interpretations of what happened and why. So as an individual case, it’s problematic for everyone. There will, unfortunately, be other more clear cut cases less open to debate over specifics and detail. This is not the modern day Rosa Parks point.

I’m finding lots of the U.S. stats quite difficult to navigate. Not least because sometimes they are including Hispanic and white as one grouping, and sometimes not. Then there’s the definition of poverty, the definition of a family. But averaging out a few websites and a few stats, it’s looking like there are very roughly 8 or 9,000,000 black people living in poverty in the U.S. and there are roughly 16 to 20,000,000 ‘white’ people living in poverty.

The prison population (even the definition of prison and jail looks awkward to navigate) appears to be made up roughly of 40% white and 40% black. So I’m struggling to pin this problem with police and the justice system on poverty or economic opportunity. If we only count poor people, then black people are still twice as likely as white to end up in prison.

 

 

[trom_borg]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I think I said a couple of pages ago that this was too muddy a case to pin any great actions on. It will always attract lots of interpretations of what happened and why. So as an individual case, it’s problematic for everyone. There will, unfortunately, be other more clear cut cases less open to debate over specifics and detail. This is not the modern day Rosa Parks point.

I’m finding lots of the U.S. stats quite difficult to navigate. Not least because sometimes they are including Hispanic and white as one grouping, and sometimes not. Then there’s the definition of poverty, the definition of a family. But averaging out a few websites and a few stats, it’s looking like there are very roughly 8 or 9,000,000 black people living in poverty in the U.S. and there are roughly 16 to 20,000,000 ‘white’ people living in poverty.

The prison population (even the definition of prison and jail looks awkward to navigate) appears to be made up roughly of 40% white and 40% black. So I’m struggling to pin this problem with police and the justice system on poverty or economic opportunity. If we only count poor people, then black people are still twice as likely as white to end up in prison.

 

 

I agree with most of this and appreciate your effort in getting finding some numbers. I think theres no doubt the prison and legal system has been used to oppress and divide minorities and the lower class in political power games through US history. Just to muddy the water even more I'll add this from US department of Justice.- In 2013, African Americans accounted for 52.2% of all murder arrests, with Whites 45.3% and Asians/indigenous Americans 2.5%. Of the above, 21.7% were Hispanic

I guess my final point here is just that this is very complicated, and racism do play a big part on several levels, but we should be careful about assuming personal racism by the police every time an incident like this happens. I think it it ultimately is counterproductive and take importance away from all the other factors at play.   

 

[HanoiVillan]

21 minutes ago, trom_borg said:

I agree with most of this and appreciate your effort in getting finding some numbers. I think theres no doubt the prison and legal system has been used to oppress and divide minorities and the lower class in political power games through US history. Just to muddy the water even more I'll add this from US department of Justice.- In 2013, African Americans accounted for 52.2% of all murder arrests, with Whites 45.3% and Asians/indigenous Americans 2.5%. Of the above, 21.7% were Hispanic

I guess my final point here is just that this is very complicated, and racism do play a big part on several levels, but we should be careful about assuming personal racism by the police every time an incident like this happens. I think it it ultimately is counterproductive and take importance away from all the other factors at play.   

 

What is the meaning of 'personal racism'?

[trom_borg]

 

13 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

What is the meaning of 'personal racism'?

Yeah sorry thats prob not the best term. I meant assuming that the cops themselves are racist and that that is the main cause of the issue.  

Edited June 16, 2020 by trom_borg

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

Not at all

If you're arresting him on suspicion of drink driving then tell him, you've blown over the limit, we think you were drink driving, I'm arresting you

Instead you have a cop spend 5 minutes being clever with him trying to trick him in to to incriminating himself by admitting he drove there drunk and talk to him about where he's going next being his mate and then grabbing him in an attempt to arrest him 

Its bad policing which is the whole point, it's the cop who has escalated the situation not the black guy 

That guy is completely oblivious to the fact that he is going to be arrested 

Really? 
 

The only way he’s completely oblivious to being arrested is because he’s totally out of it, which is the whole reason why he’s being arrested.

 

I’ve already said the moment of arrest could have been done differently but I’m not prepared to have basic facts rewritten for the sake of making him a martyr.

[nick76]

There is bits and bobs about him fighting, resisting, didnt know he was going to be arrested, he shouldnt have been drinking and driving but at the end of the day he was shot and killed.  Let's say he (Brooks) did everything bad, knew everything that was going to happen, surely he never thought he was going to be killed or anybody on here thought he was going to be killed.  Conversation on here seems to be deep in the weeds and most of it is about intentions and thoughts of the individuals, some of which we'll never know. 

The only real question of debate is why the officer shot to kill Brooks? what was his motive(s)?

The training from awful restraining technique, gun use, losing the taser and other general police duties are for the police to sort out but society along with the police need to debate why in that final moment that Brooks was shot? what was the motive.  Why is the stats in these situations so different for white men compared to black men.

[sharkyvilla]

I hadn't realised until just now but the Wendy's where it happened got burnt down.  I'm not sure what they did to deserve that.

[bickster]

3 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

He obviously didn’t deserve to die for that but then that’s not why he was shot.

 

No he appears to have been shot for discharging a non lethal, one shot weapon towards the Police. At the time that weapon is discharged, he is again unarmed and running away. Forget all the stuff that went before it.

If he was shot when aiming the weapon at the Police, there's an argument to say, yep got what he asked for. Once that moment passes, no sorry, thats shooting an unarmed drunk man in the back

[bannedfromHandV]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

No he appears to have been shot for discharging a non lethal, one shot weapon towards the Police. At the time that weapon is discharged, he is again unarmed and running away. Forget all the stuff that went before it.

If he was shot when aiming the weapon at the Police, there's an argument to say, yep got what he asked for. Once that moment passes, no sorry, thats shooting an unarmed drunk man in the back

During my exchanges with @villa4europe I’m not trying to defend the end result but merely stating the facts that led up to it.

Reading stuff like ‘they should have just let him sleep it off’ or ‘should have let him walk home’ is revisionist bollocks because you know for sure those same people would be front and centre in damning him if the story was that he got his food at the drive thru then killed someone because he fell asleep.

 

[Sam-AVFC]

Picture post signing an executive order for some police reforms. Good thing proper policing wont make much difference to his goals if he has the national guard and army on standby. 

I'm starting to understand why he has so little self awareness if he gets a standing ovation every time he manages to write his name.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Sam-AVFC

[villa4europe]

8 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

During my exchanges with @villa4europe I’m not trying to defend the end result but merely stating the facts that led up to it.

Reading stuff like ‘they should have just let him sleep it off’ or ‘should have let him walk home’ is revisionist bollocks because you know for sure those same people would be front and centre in damning him if the story was that he got his food at the drive thru then killed someone because he fell asleep.

I didn't actually say either of those things if you're talking revisionist bollocks

[Keyblade]

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

No he appears to have been shot for discharging a non lethal, one shot weapon towards the Police. At the time that weapon is discharged, he is again unarmed and running away. Forget all the stuff that went before it.

If he was shot when aiming the weapon at the Police, there's an argument to say, yep got what he asked for. Once that moment passes, no sorry, thats shooting an unarmed drunk man in the back

The cop was already pulling out the gun before he even turned around and discharged the taser. 

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

The cop was already pulling out the gun before he even turned around and discharged the taser. 

Yep, I get that but the crucial moment is the moment he pulls the trigger