The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Awol]

The Americans themselves are open about having at least 130 SOF guys on the ground, that's not counting the CIA contingent in Irbil operating drones and the like. As for involving large regular units I agree they won't touch that option.

Around the time air strikes were being proposed against Assad, the then ISIS were operating miniature death camps in Syria to systematically murder those they disapproved of - and in sickeningly imaginative ways.

The really interesting thing is how long it will take the west to now give Assad their tacit support in fighting IS within Syria, and in so doing further aligning us with Tehran - the nemesis of Tel Aviv.

There is a gradual but seismic shift afoot in the foreign policy approach towards the broader Middle East, sadly it will be driven more by events than a cogent analysis of long term objectives. Stand by for a grand bargain on Iran's nuclear programme and the dropping of western sanctions against them. That'll go down well in Riyadh!!

[Ikantcpell]

I still cant get over what i watched last night..he was just sitting there scared and talking with a shaky voice then this sub human scum start cutting his head off with a knife, just like he was cutting of a thick rope or something.

 

Then a while later his head is laying on his stomach..Jesus christ i cant believe that a "human" can be so full of evil..and why do they have to cut his head off like that ? why not just shoot him in the head if they must kill him

 

Why this barabaric way of killing people..same when they kill thier animals, why do they have to cut the throat off ? Why ?? why ??

[lapal_fan]

with regard to the humans, because it makes you fear them

 

with regard to the animals, no idea.

 

I don't mind what they do, but it's backward.

[sharkyvilla]

Religious fanaticism and religion itself can only really be educated out of people over generations. It's not that long since the West were doing ridiculous things in the name of religion and there are still loonies out there. I wonder if we had spent the war money on good roads and schools whether we'd be in this mess.

[Davkaus]

There may be fewer Jihadists, but we'd see a huge influx of extremism caused by an increase in roadworks. Swings and roundabouts really.

[Wainy316]

Would it be considered bad foreign policy to go and remove all non-secular governments?

[bickster]

Would it be considered bad foreign policy to go and remove all non-secular governments?

There wouldn't be many left mores the pity. Very few secular governments out there really even the USA is effectively Christian / Jewish.

You'd mainly be left with dictatorships in one form or other

[blandy]

 

Aside from the difficulties of telling nation states that WE won't allow them to have weapons, we'd have to use an awful lot of force to disarm the Middle East, and kill an awful lot of people. I'm not really sure that's the outcome you're looking for?

 

WE are very much responsible for telling nation states which of them can and can't have weapons. At the moment, we're killing an awful lot of people anyway, I'd be more comfortable if the goal of that process was a more peaceful middle east in the long term rather than profit.

 

I know it's a pipe dream, but we seem to have lost sight of some very basic principles in the middle east - namely that stopping people killing each other, both in the short and long term, and increasing dialogue between all of the parties should be our aim - not making a quick buck and helping whoever we're friends with at the time kill more than whoever we're not friends with.

 

Factually, pedantically speaking "we" are not "very much responsible for telling nation states which of them can and can't have weapons" - we can only control who the UK sells or gives weapons to. we can't really control who Russia or France or China or etc. supply with weapons.

 

One of the weaknesses in all this is that there's no global "we".

Another is that there's no fixed global "them" (bad guys) - particularly in the middle east.

 

Personally, I think the west or the UK with our values, understandable though it might be, in many respects, is wrong to think we can actually do anything concrete about all these horrors. The desire by politicians to respond to western public horror (or their own horror) at what is going on is mainly just misguided, if that's the right word.

We generally (with rare exceptions) make things worse, or different, but rarely, lastingly better. We are not able to affect things as our sensitivities might like. And where we are (Israel) we (Gov'ts) choose not to.

 

I suppose the UN is undermined by the US and others ignoring it because it doesn't suit their parochial wishes. There's no bigger picture stuff going on, no accepted set of universally held values. It's not a problem for which there is an answer.

 

Whilst selling or giving arms to unstable undemocratic nations or groups is not generally a good thing, I fear there'd still be slaughter even if all nations stopped arming various factions. We saw in Africa with massacres by knife, that where people are set upon feuding and power and blood, lack of modern weaponry doesn't lessen the slaughter.

 

I don't think we should be arming unstable states, or states who abuse their population with arms or torture etc. but very sadly there's no global kind of rule on this, and you can't uninvent what is already known.

[Xela]

RIP James Foley 

 

No interest in seeing the video, I watched one years ago and as another poster has said, it still haunts me to this day. They've beheaded Chrisian children in the name of their religion.

 

Barbaric animals. Hope the US/UK special forces can assist the local forces in destroying them 

[rendelc]

I hope the British Jihadists on their return to these shores are severely dealt with . Lets see how much backbone this govt has .

[mjmooney]

I've been reading Tom Holland's 'Millennium' - a very good history book about Europe in the 10th & 11th centuries. It reads like Game of Thrones - superstition, barbarity, hatred, backstabbing, greed, callousness, starvation, disease, rape, theft, and massive amounts of horrific violence, perpetrated by quasi-military gangs, in the name of Islam, Christianity and various deranged madmen.

Right now, 2014, the world looks EXACTLY the same - the only difference being the killing power of the weapons being used. I fear that as a species we are doomed, and frankly we deserve to be extinct. Utterly depressing.

[Davkaus]

I hope the British Jihadists on their return to these shores are severely dealt with . Lets see how much backbone this govt has .

 

The problem is, there's little to no proof. You can travel to the region without being partaking in a bit of casual murder. There are people who travel there to see family, and our legal system will (rightly, imo) err on the side of caution, so these words removed will get away with it. But what can be done? You can't ban people from travelling there.

[maqroll]

It's hard not to think that a semi-permanent American ground force will be in Iraq to fight these guys. 

 

If only there was a non-Islamist strong man who kept terrorist groups out of Iraq and kept a lid on sectarian violence within Iraq...

 

Invading Iraq, dismantling their army and removing Saddam Hussein was probably the dumbest foreign policy blunder by the United States, ever.

 

Not even Vietnam compares to this. 

 

They've now created exactly the kind of situation they were purportedly trying to prevent.

[snowychap]

But what can be done? You can't ban people from travelling there.

A snippet from Mr Cameron's lips on the news earlier seemed to think that he/they could and would 'if people were considering going'.

That seems like a worryingly low bar.

[Rugeley Villa]

american and probably british special forces will already be over there doing missions, without a shadow of a doubt we alongside america and maybe other countries will go to war with these horrible bastards. we will destroy IS, i have no shadow of doubt about that but then a year or two down the line another group will pop up. i sometimes wonder if the world would be a better place without the middle east and israel, i have not doubt it would be.

[Davkaus]

 

But what can be done? You can't ban people from travelling there.

A snippet from Mr Cameron's lips on the news earlier seemed to think that he/they could and would 'if people were considering going'.

That seems like a worryingly low bar.

 

 

It's also completely pointless, unless he's planning to prevent anyone from leaving Britain entirely. Not too hard to fly to Turkey and make your way over the border, I'd imagine.

[coda]

I've been reading Tom Holland's 'Millennium' - a very good history book about Europe in the 10th & 11th centuries. It reads like Game of Thrones - superstition, barbarity, hatred, backstabbing, greed, callousness, starvation, disease, rape, theft, and massive amounts of horrific violence, perpetrated by quasi-military gangs, in the name of Islam, Christianity and various deranged madmen.

Right now, 2014, the world looks EXACTLY the same - the only difference being the killing power of the weapons being used. I fear that as a species we are doomed, and frankly we deserve to be extinct. Utterly depressing.

 

There's a Steven Pinker book, The Better Angels of Our Nature, in which he shows the number of deaths by violence (as a proportion of population) has been declining for centuries. Don't know how accurate it is as I'm too lazy to read its 1000+ pages.

[Glarmorgan]

 

PeterMS - you are obsessed with your hatred towards Israel. Homosexuals in Gaza are hanged, Non Sunni-Muslims in Iraq and Syria are decapitated, with entire communities massacred only for not being Sunni. The Syrian civil war cost the lives of hundreds of thousands. The Christian minority in the West Bank is slowly being driven out by their Muslim neighbors. The same happens in Egypt. Lebanon is in relative turmoil, with the Hizbulla holding a stronger army than the government - sending this army to fight in Syria, for Syria, while their leader keeps threatening Israel, without any cause whatsoever, knowing that in case of war - Israel's retaliation will bring death and suffer for Lebanon.

 

But Israel is the problem. The only state in the Middle East where the Arabs enjoy full democracy, with a total religious freedom, with a complete freedom of speech.

 

By the way - Gilad Sharon is indeed Ariel Sharon's son. He has never been elected to the parliament, has never taken a public office. He is important no more than I am. Do you wish to make a flier with my picture as well?

If you weren't so obsessed with your lying Hasbara propaganda shite, and had noticed what I've actually posted on this site over the course of many years, you would see that I have criticised extremist violence in many forms. That doesn't suit your predetermined agenda though, so you don't recognise it.

Perhaps your next move will be to accuse me of antisemitism. That seems to be part of the game the Israeli supporters online play.

By the way, this stuff about Arabs enjoying full rights in Israel is just utter bollocks. You are either deluded, or deliberately lying. Educate yourself if it's the former, or get out if it's the latter.

 

You mush be mistaking me as one of your British or Scottish counterparts who watched a couple of video clips, read some articles on the Guardian or spent some time watching Ilan Pappe's lectures, thinking they know it all.

 

I don't need to be educated as, in a complete contrast to you - I don't look at things from afar. I am here, right here, in this state you know nothing about. I don't need to "learn" or "study" of the rights of Arabs in Israel - I know it. I live it on daily basis. I live in a small town, 10 minutes from Ramla and Lod, both are mixed cities with Arabs and Jews. I spent years of my mature life next and in Kefar Kasem, an Arab town. Hell, I even played for their local football team in the 5th tier of Israeli football, occasionally being the only Jew player in the team. If you want to talk about the West Bank? Been there as well - have you? I saw things with my own eyes, not Ilan Pappe's. I assume that's more than you can say. This does not mean I know it all. This sure means you can't throw your empty lies at me, talking of massacres and genocides. I was there, I know the orders, I know the plans, I know what I was told and what I told to the soldiers under my command. 

You want to talk about rights? Arabs are represented in the Parliament, there are Arab judges,Araby mayors.  Arab doctors are a crucial part of the health system. They enjoy full religious freedom, Arabic is an official language in Israel (alongside Hebrew and English) and I can go on and on. There are things to improve - both from the "Jewish" side and from the "Arabic" one, but I assure you there are no other Arabs, throughout the region, who hold even half of this. 

 

Your empty claims towards me or towards Israel might have an effect on the common Brit who gathers information from the media. I am not a "Hasbara" person. I am a common civilian of the Israeli state, father of 3, a High Tech worker, with a huge mortgage and a nonstop effort to try and build my life here.  Due to this - I am astounded by either your ignorance of the reality here, or your unbelievably biased interpretation of it, claiming Israel to be worse than ISIS or groups of that sort.

 

And I don't need to bring up the Antisemitism claim. This is a case of ignorance and blind hatred. Nothing else.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I've been reading Tom Holland's 'Millennium' - a very good history book about Europe in the 10th & 11th centuries. It reads like Game of Thrones - superstition, barbarity, hatred, backstabbing, greed, callousness, starvation, disease, rape, theft, and massive amounts of horrific violence, perpetrated by quasi-military gangs, in the name of Islam, Christianity and various deranged madmen.

Right now, 2014, the world looks EXACTLY the same - the only difference being the killing power of the weapons being used. I fear that as a species we are doomed, and frankly we deserve to be extinct. Utterly depressing.

There's a Steven Pinker book, The Better Angels of Our Nature, in which he shows the number of deaths by violence (as a proportion of population) has been declining for centuries. Don't know how accurate it is as I'm too lazy to read its 1000+ pages.

That's not actually that surprising when you think of how many wars there have been over the years and the amount of men that must have died on battlefields.

When we see atrocities committed by ISIS and other so called terrorist organisations we find it hard to comprehend how humans are capable of such acts. That is because we have not lived through war. We haven't had our families killed before our own eyes. We haven't suffered years of persecution by brutal regimes.

Think of the psychological damage inflicted on people growing up in these places. War can make people do things they would never dream of.

[donnie]

I've been reading Tom Holland's 'Millennium' - a very good history book about Europe in the 10th & 11th centuries. It reads like Game of Thrones - superstition, barbarity, hatred, backstabbing, greed, callousness, starvation, disease, rape, theft, and massive amounts of horrific violence, perpetrated by quasi-military gangs, in the name of Islam, Christianity and various deranged madmen.

Right now, 2014, the world looks EXACTLY the same - the only difference being the killing power of the weapons being used. I fear that as a species we are doomed, and frankly we deserve to be extinct. Utterly depressing.

There's a Steven Pinker book, The Better Angels of Our Nature, in which he shows the number of deaths by violence (as a proportion of population) has been declining for centuries. Don't know how accurate it is as I'm too lazy to read its 1000+ pages.

That's not actually that surprising when you think of how many wars there have been over the years and the amount of men that must have died on battlefields.

When we see atrocities committed by ISIS and other so called terrorist organisations we find it hard to comprehend how humans are capable of such acts. That is because we have not lived through war. We haven't had our families killed before our own eyes. We haven't suffered years of persecution by brutal regimes.

Think of the psychological damage inflicted on people growing up in these places. War can make people do things they would never dream of.

Yet they are people fighting for isis from countries such as the US, UK and Australia where the only war they have experienced is on there xbox. They are brought up in nice houses, drive nice cars, free healthcare, safe environment yet certain people still hate us all in the name of religion.