The_Rev Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 150 in his last 151 (going back to the opening day of the 2009/10 season, by when Barcelona had sold Eto'o and made Messi their main attacking player) 189 in his last 202 (going back to the opening day of the 2008/09 season, which is when Guardiola took over and Barcelona sold Ronaldinho) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Worth going o/t and mentioning that Cronaldo has 98 in 89 league games for RM, which is mental Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 For those who say he needs to win world cup, can people please answer I posed a few pages back. Also 'until he performs on the international stage' ...I am not just saying it but he is their best player pretty much every game. Because of the strikers available to Argentina, he doesn't score as many because others play further forward than him, he has something like 10 assists and 7 goals in last 14 internationals. I'd call that pretty decent. It's not at ridicolous levels but that is naturally to be expected, just like players such as C. Ronaldo have lesser goal rates. Playing in a weaker team with players you don't play with every week, different way of playing etc.. Why is it that others not pulling their weight counts as 'Messi not performing' ... Is it because you just stumble upon Argentina's result in the week and the fact he isn't as prolific in internationals and that means he doesn't perform? I guess you could say I'm biased towards a single player and to be pissy about it, I do watch the Argentina games through the early hours and Messi rarely ever let's his country down. As for 'have to win the world cup' again as said If Messi has an average world cup personally but Argentina won it because Aguero, Higuain, Di Maria etc have a brilliant tournament, he is best in world. If Messi has a brilliant world cup but Argentina go out in semi's on say penalties then he can't be considered the best cause let's say mascherano missed a penalty with chance to put Argentina through to final etc...? This logic makes no sense. I didn't read that question, and still haven't, and I can't speak for others, but for me the mentioning of his international records is only when I compare him to Maradona. A player that I still see as the best ever. That's not saying Messi isn't the best or one of the 2 best players atm, it's just me saying that so far he still is behind Maradona. Like evrey other player on this planet. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Think already said that if believed Maradona was the better player then Messi winning a world cup/not winning a world cup should have nothing to do it and visa versa IMO. If he got knocked out the quarerter finals, semi finals, runner up or won it, he's still the same plays with the same ability and proven as a player who can perform at crucial times to win huge competitions. I just think for people who have seen both players, the debate should be easier and just a question of 'who was the better footballer' rather than what they won. The way people find their answer annoys me, not the actual answer. If people think Maradona is the better footballer let's say in may 2014. Then I don't personally believe Messi winning a world cup should change that opinion either, well unless he ridiculously stepped his game to levels we've not seen and then carried that through to the point where you thought he was the better player. I don't get why it's so complicated 'he has to win this' ...'he needs to play in this league' ...'he needs to play for a smaller club' ..surely it's just a case (as long as form of Messi is continued to high levels for number of years) of who was the better footballer? I hope i make it clear that I don't believe Messi to be better than Maradona but I will always talk about Messi being the best I've seen because I've not seen others. I hope Messi goes down as the greatest in the eyes of those that saw Maradona and other greats but only if it's deemed worthy due to believing he is a better player, not just because he won a tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Fair points and I didn't express myself very clear. And of course, he doesn't have to win a world cup to become the biggest. But as I tried to pojt out in an earlier post, Messi is the best right now and scores for fun, but he also plays in the best team in the world and the opposition ain't always that good. And everyb time I've seen him in Argentina he hasn't been that dominating at all without the service from Xavi and Iniesta and whatever players they've got. Maradona played for a worse Argentina and single handedly won the world cup for them. And I do mean single handedly. Hadn't it been for him they probably wouldn't have gone past the the last 16. Messi in the world cup has been a huge let down. Messi is the best when he gets the service, Maradona was the service and the executioner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2012 I'm very much in agreement with you AVFC-PoB as my posts on the previous page suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 12, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted March 12, 2012 Same. it's performances that should count, not honours. Jonathan Greening has a Champions League winners medal, (brazillian) Ronaldo doesn't. Does that make Greening better? of course not. If Messi was as good as he is now, but happened to be from Burkina Faso, would that mean he could never be the best player in the world because Burkina Faso will never ( I would assume) do anything notable in International football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The world cup is one of the reasons why Johan Cruyff gets left out of these discussions, and he could play a bit. George Best too I guess. It's obvious that Messi is one of the best ever, he is definitely in that top bracket of players with Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Ronaldo (etc) but to decide between them is virtually impossible because they played in different eras. Maradona definitely lit up a world cup though. Ronaldo did to in 2002. If Messi can do that then it removes one of the few things people can still throw at him. Brazil 2014 is all set up for him, he will be 26/27 at the time (his birthday will be during the tournament) and as it is in South America then you might expect Argentina to have a strong showing. He will certainly be a hero back at home if he can lift the world cup in enemy territory. I'm still not sure how revered he is in Argentina compared to Diego as he has lived overseas for almost all of his life, but a world cup will cement his place in immortality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 If Messi was as good as he is now, but happened to be from Burkina Faso, would that mean he could never be the best player in the world because Burkina Faso will never ( I would assume) do anything notable in International football? George Weah would be a good example there, methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 If Messi was as good as he is now, but happened to be from Burkina Faso, would that mean he could never be the best player in the world because Burkina Faso will never ( I would assume) do anything notable in International football? George Weah would be a good example there, methinks. Or an even better example, Salifou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Messi is an outstanding footballer.... is he the best ever..... for me no. When you play week in week out with probably 4 of the other top 10 best players in the world, it probably helps. Crondaldo has a better goal scoring record in his league but goes unmentioned, and also below the top 4/5 in Spain, you essentially have a bunch of low level Championship standard teams, it is nowhere near as competitive as the PL for example. Barca are 16 points clear of 3rd place, Madrid are 26 points clear - its madness. Looking at the PL, 26 points is the gap between 1st and 7th. Messi is a fabulous player, in not a very competitive league. To be the greatest ever, for me he would need to repeat his performances outside of the best club side in the world. How would he fancy Stoke on a freezing pissy night in December....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Messi is an outstanding footballer.... is he the best ever..... for me no. When you play week in week out with probably 4 of the other top 10 best players in the world, it probably helps. Crondaldo has a better goal scoring record in his league but goes unmentioned, and also below the top 4/5 in Spain, you essentially have a bunch of low level Championship standard teams, it is nowhere near as competitive as the PL for example. Barca are 16 points clear of 3rd place, Madrid are 26 points clear - its madness. Looking at the PL, 26 points is the gap between 1st and 7th. Messi is a fabulous player, in not a very competitive league. To be the greatest ever, for me he would need to repeat his performances outside of the best club side in the world. How would he fancy Stoke on a freezing pissy night in December....? Bilbao are 7th, Atletico Madrid 8th Sevilla 12th Villarreal are 17th. I think the view you have is so typical and narrow minded of a lot of people in England. It maybe is slightly weaker overall but certainly don't think there is huge differences, especially looking at the Premier League this season, Villa have served up a pile of shite this season and yet we are 6 points behind 7th. It's also made to look less competitive by the quality of the two big teams mentioned. Swap Real Madrid + Barca for United + City and I think La Liga gap would look closer in terms of 1st - 3rd, while gap would increase by a few points in the PL. To call teams below 4th/5th in La Liga just championship teams is stupid for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 12, 2012 Must agree with POB here. This season's Premier League is one of the poorest I can remember. Anything outside the top 5 has been mediocre at best. In comparison, Bilbao went to Old Trafford and went for the throat and came away with a win. For years I subscribed to the theory that a mini-league of Spain & England's non-elite sides would be a landslide for the English sides and for years that was probably true. I think this year is the first year where I see the opposite being true, certainly amongst the non-relegation sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Messi is an outstanding footballer.... is he the best ever..... for me no. When you play week in week out with probably 4 of the other top 10 best players in the world, it probably helps. Completely irrelevant when you actually sit down and take the time to watch him play. His strength, his movement, the tricks, the goals, the slips. I mean shit, for 5'6" he's even fairly decent in the air. Outstanding doesn't come close for me. I think the majority of people who don't believe him to be "The Best Ever" (which is in reality impossible to nail down) are in denial. They can't comprehend the fact that he's alive and playing now and they can watch him every week if they wish to. But it's true, it's the luck of the draw. Go enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The Premier League is no where near as good as people think it is.. It really hacks me off when people think it's the best league in the world, it isn't. You put Zaragoza agains Wolves, my money would be on Zaragoza.. Likewise with Italy and even Germany, you put like for like teams against each other and the English teams would struggle. The reason Barca/Madrid are light years ahead of everyone else is because every top player in the world wants to play for them, except Ibrahimovic To reiterate my original point, the Premier League is terribad. Get rid of teams like Wigan, Wolves, Stoke, Norwich, Villa (this season!!!!) (the boring teams) and the league would be way better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Messi is an outstanding footballer.... is he the best ever..... for me no. When you play week in week out with probably 4 of the other top 10 best players in the world, it probably helps. Completely irrelevant when you actually sit down and take the time to watch him play. His strength, his movement, the tricks, the goals, the slips. I mean shit, for 5'6" he's even fairly decent in the air. Outstanding doesn't come close for me. I think the majority of people who don't believe him to be "The Best Ever" (which is in reality impossible to nail down) are in denial. They can't comprehend the fact that he's alive and playing now and they can watch him every week if they wish to. But it's true, it's the luck of the draw. Go enjoy. Oh I do... like I said, he is an outstanding player. But a great player also influences all those around him, and with the rest of THAT side..... shit, I'd look good. Watch him for Argentina and he has nowhere near the influence on a game because he isn't given the freedom to do it. He has to make up for the failings of others. Like I said, for me, for Messi to be the greatest, he would have to repeat what he is done in a different League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 How would he fancy Stoke on a freezing pissy night in December....? No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no you did not just say that in all seriousness did you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The other week Valencia beat Stoke 1-0 at the Britannia a few days before Messi hit 4 against Valencia. I think that's as close as we'd get to an answer to that question. La Liga is miles better than the Premier League. The technique is in a different class and what they lack in strength compared to the PL they make up for in pressing football. Messi is out of this world. It's like having David Silva plus Cristiano Ronaldo all in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The other week Valencia beat Stoke 1-0 at the Britannia a few days before Messi hit 4 against Valencia. I think that's as close as we'd get to an answer to that question. La Liga is miles better than the Premier League cant really judge because of that. Villareal lost to City but drew with Barcelona, Getafe beat Spurs and Bolton beat Atletico Madrid in same season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 People need to stop with the idea that the Spanish teams outside the top 4 are Championship standard. The 8th place English is no better than, the 8th Spanish team, same for 12th, 15th etc. How bad have AVFC been this season. In my opinion the worst I have seen (95 to present) yet we are only 6 points from Europa League chasing Liverpool. The top 2 in Spain are better then the top 2 in England. I think the 3rd to 6th are slightly better in England, for example Arsenal a bit better than Valencia. Then after that it is about the same. Stick Aston Villa in the primera Liga this season and they would be in a similar position. They would not be 6th place like some think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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