Zatman Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 christ Best used to turn up after a full night partying and no sleep and go play 90 minutes. Doing that now you'd barely last to half time. meh i can last an hour in 5 a side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 While we celebrate brilliant individuality, let's not forget that Football is played with 11 men and if Argentina are un-organised and lacking quality in other areas of the pitch who top teams are able to exploit then Lionel Messi CAN'T single handedly go and pull Argentina through.. Maradona did in 1986. Single handedly won them the world cup. I'm a massive fan of Messi but would give Maradona the edge at the current time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 big difference though, in 86 maradona was the satr of the show and they built the team around him, they havent done that with messi, he's not held in the same regard by the fans or the management, tevez and aguero have both been bigger stars than him in the national team and like i said before, diego was 26 in 86 so its a bit harsh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 9, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 9, 2012 diego was 26 in 86 so its a bit harsh And more than likely on a cocktail of performance enhancing drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 22 goals in 67 caps for Argentina. I think if Messi could inspire Argentina to World Cup glory then that would cement his status as the best player ever. He has proved how good he is in club football. Now he needs to do it on the international stage. Possibly, but if he wins the Ballon D'Or 5 to 10 times in a row I would consider it a better achievement than being part of a World Cup winning team. Maradona was notoriously brilliant in 86 but the Argies only conceded 3 goals in the whole tournament and made match-winning contributions that much easier. In 2010 the defence was a shambles and Maradona was a complete nutcase. I can't imagine there ever being a better footballer than Messi myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Good Maradona video: He undoubtedly had some amazing skills, but the speed and technicality of the game were a lot lower. The proliferation of tactics and best practises have caused there to be a lot less 'mug' teams. Team's are very organised now so for Messi to be able to do the things he does in the modern La Liga and Champions' League puts him ahead of Maradona IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The counter argument to that of course is that Messi gets a lot more protection from referees than Diego did. Kicking a player out of the game in 2012 is almost impossible, it was commonplace in the 80s. It's very difficult to compare players from different eras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Good Maradona video: He undoubtedly had some amazing skills, but the speed and technicality of the game were a lot lower. The proliferation of tactics and best practises have caused there to be a lot less 'mug' teams. Team's are very organised now so for Messi to be able to do the things he does in the modern La Liga and Champions' League puts him ahead of Maradona IMO. But Serie A was the best league in the world at the time. And had the best defenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 yeah, Maradona's Napoli beat that unbelievably good Milan team (Van Basten, Baresi etc) to the title. Can't argue with that. as for the world cup arguement, i'd say the champions league has surpassed the world cup in terms of quality, if not prestige. too much of national team sucess has a random element to it, despite how much preperation you put in to it. anyway, this is all moot becauce Batistuta rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The counter argument to that of course is that Messi gets a lot more protection from referees than Diego did. Kicking a player out of the game in 2012 is almost impossible, it was commonplace in the 80s. It's very difficult to compare players from different eras. I'd say just as important is the exposure that each player had/has. Most football supporters would see Maradona for a few matches every four years. Nowadays, anyone interested can watch Messi for a few matches every four weeks. Even when Maradona was being brilliant at Napoli, he was only scoring every other game. Obviously it's still a great record, but I don't think it stands up to Messi's at the same age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 For me, Messi wont be the best player in the world ever until he performs at International level Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2012 For me, Messi wont be the best player in the world ever until he performs at International level If you don't mind me saying, that is a rather dated and old fashioned view. In the past such a statement would have been true, in the 60's, 70's and 80's international football was the pinnacle. I don't think that is any longer the case, I think the standard of the CL is now higher than International football where players are thrown together and have very little time to gel. I'm not dismissing the importance of performing in international football or indeed international football from the debate entirely but I just don't think it is as crucial as it once was. If Messi continues to perform the way he has for the next few years at domestic level I think many will view him as the best there has been, rightly or wrongly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 For me, Messi wont be the best player in the world ever until he performs at International level If you don't mind me saying, that is a rather dated and old fashioned view. In the past such a statement would have been true, in the 60's, 70's and 80's international football was the pinnacle. I don't think that is any longer the case, I think the standard of the CL is now higher than International football where players are thrown together and have very little time to gel. I'm not dismissing the importance of performing in international football or indeed international football from the debate entirely but I just don't think it is as crucial as it once was. If Messi continues to perform the way he has for the next few years at domestic level I think many will view him as the best there has been, rightly or wrongly. I dont mind you saying at all - Its a fair point. One that I have a slightly different take on though. I dont think the standard of International football is worse than the CL because of a lack of time to gel. I think the standard of International football is worse because there is a distinct lack of effort in the players who are sold this idea that the CL is the pinnacle, which for me it definately isnt, nor should it be. I watched Messi the other night and I was astounded by how good he was. But if he is that good, he should be performing much much better for argentina than he currently has done (which by his standards has been quite poor tbh), regardless of whether he has had time to gel with others or he is played out of position. Not for one minute suggesting he should be as good as he is for Barcelona because they have something special going on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The counter argument to that of course is that Messi gets a lot more protection from referees than Diego did. Kicking a player out of the game in 2012 is almost impossible, it was commonplace in the 80s. It's very difficult to compare players from different eras. I'd say just as important is the exposure that each player had/has. Most football supporters would see Maradona for a few matches every four years. Nowadays, anyone interested can watch Messi for a few matches every four weeks. Even when Maradona was being brilliant at Napoli, he was only scoring every other game. Obviously it's still a great record, but I don't think it stands up to Messi's at the same age. Maradona was more of an attacking midfielder whilst Messi is a striker. My guess is that Maradona had more goal giving assists than Messi. Add to that that Messi plays in the best team in the world atm, whilst Maradona played for a lot worse teams than that. It is to be seen when Messi plays for Argentina when he doesn't get the free space he gets at Barcelona. For me Maradona is till the best, but I have to say that Messi is probably the one that comes closest in the last 20 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2012 I dont think the standard of International football is worse than the CL because of a lack of time to gel. I think the standard of International football is worse because there is a distinct lack of effort in the players who are sold this idea that the CL is the pinnacle, which for me it definately isnt, nor should it be. It isn't just the time to gel, its the fact that at the very pinnacle of club football players are signed to compliment each other and when you are a club like Barcelona you have the choice of almost any player in the world. You don't have that in international football, you have what you have and that is it. The reason that international football is no longer the pinnacle is because of player movement. In the decades I mentioned the top European sides were by and large full of the best players from their respective countries. The Liverpool side for instance was packed with the best British players, not players from around the globe. Therefore the England national team would have been as good as if not better than the Liverpool side. These days the Man City side is for instance far superior to the England national team. You are right that players see the CL as the pinnacle for financial reasons but the truth is that football wise it is as well. The Barcelona team benefits from players from all over the place (including Messi) and they are largely all there to play around Messi. The same isn't true of the Argentina side who have to get the best from what they have. For whatever reason they are incapable of finding a way to get the best out of Messi but that says more about the Argentina side than it does him as a player. Messi is ripping sides a new arsehole week after week in domestic and European football who are easily better than the national teams he is failing to perform against. International football isn't the pinnacle any more, neither should it be the bench mark for judging who the greatest player(s) are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 The Liverpool side for instance was packed with the best British players, not players from around the globe. Therefore the England national team would have been as good as if not better than the Liverpool side. These days the Man City side is for instance far superior to the England national team. Very good/interesting point that. One that I had not considered 'consciously' before tbh. I cant really argue with anything else you have put tbh either. All I will say though, (and this is what dominates my thoughts along with what I have seen in games - albeit mainly with England) - My dad worked (now retired) for a certain organisation that had people in South Africa for the world cup. Although they didnt get close to the players, they got close to representatives of the players and the word on the street was - Not one of them gave a shit. Now that, as well as being a rumour, wont come as a surprise to you no doubt, but how can it be possible to make any form of fair evaluation on the standard of international football when it is clear there is a possibility that the standard being shown is not 'true'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2012 I'm sure many give a shit about playing for their country and many don't, many want to appear in a WC others probably don't much care. I don't disagree with that even if it is only based upon 3rd rumour or personal belief, I would though say it is probably the same at every level of the domestic game in every country as well. I would probably argue that it has always been that way to an extent as well although it has I accept be made worse by the money. I still think most footballers would rather win the World Cup than the CL though you know, I think it is still the biggest prize in the game it just isn't the highest standard of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS-T Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 For me, Messi wont be the best player in the world ever until he performs at International level This. He plays in the best team in Spain so it's easy for him to dominate the weaker Spanish opposition. He also has players like Xavi and Iniesta to help him. If Messi is the best player ever then he should be able to perfom without all his Barca team-mates. Pele won the World Cup. Maradona won the World Cup. Messi needs to win the World Cup before he can claim to be the best player ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Whilst I agree that Champions League football is a higher standard now than International football, I also agree that he has to win a World Cup before he can be seen as a greatest ever player. World Cups are what people judge a player on, even if it perhaps shouldn't be the case, it just is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 10, 2012 Moderator Share Posted March 10, 2012 Guivarc'h Kleberson Roque Junior Bernade Diomede Just a few examples of crap players who have won the World Cup. In a team sport I think it is daft to judge the ability of an individual by a trophy they have or haven't won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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