Global Warming

[sidcow]

2 minutes ago, Tegis said:

 

 

The golden thing with hydrogen is that we will never run out of it. But it's a damn tricky substance to store, handle, transport and most crucially, get separated from whatever it is merged to in natural conditions.

Will probably not be viable until we have some sort of almost unlimited clean energy so the 1 to 4 ratio mentioned above doesn't matter. And even then we might have some new battery tech that is not dependent on rare materials.

Still, pour research in everything and we hopefully stumble on the right avenue in the end.

Batteries will be significantly improved by the time that ever happens.  Wind and Solar will be producing masses of excess which will have storage solutions by then.

Batteries of different materials and technologies which are full recyclable will be cheap and plentiful by then*.  No one is going to suddenly set up loads of new factories and production lines to cater for Hydrogen - you've seen how slow and reluctant traditional manufacturers have been to invest in electrification - may of them are going to fail because of it.   they're not suddenly going to steer away from electricity in 10 years enless something is seriously broken with electric vehicles which is hard to imagine.

Hydrogen is only ever going to be a specialist source, possible for aviation.

 

* They're coming on stream now.  This rarity of materials argument is the Oil and Gas industry whataboutism propaganda.  There are already batteries stopping using cobalt and lithium and they're actually likely to be better than lithium batteries anyway.  

[sidcow]

https://www.coolingpost.com/uk-news/field-trial-proves-heat-pump-efficiencies/

 

Field trial proves heat pump efficiencies

Quote

Real world monitoring is said to have shown that air-source heat pumps can operate with higher efficiencies than gas boilers, even in cold weather conditions. 

According to interim heat pump performance data released as part of the Electrification of Heat Demonstration Project, that the performance of ASHPs has increased significantly compared to data from past field trials, and performed well even on the coldest observed days, with only a relatively small reduction in performance.

Also, high temperature ASHPs had comparable efficiencies to low temperature ASHPs, indicating that they are a viable solution to reduce home retrofit requirements.

Quote

A total of 742 heat pumps were installed by the delivery contractors – Warmworks, E.ON, and OVO Energy – into a broad spectrum of housing types and ages. These heat pumps are being monitored throughout the trial to assess their performance.

Quote

Marc Brown, Business Leader – Homes, at Energy Systems Catapult, said: “The interim findings of the Electrification of Heat Demonstration Project highlight just how far the industry has come in innovating to improve the performance and efficiency of heat pumps.

“With the release of this data, we can finally put to bed the notion that heat pumps do not work in cold weather conditions and that they are inefficient to run. We’ve observed the exact opposite. They are three times more efficient than gas boilers and work in cold weather conditions. Innovation is changing the game in the heating sector.”

Quote

The EoH project analysed the performance of heat pumps on some of the country’s coldest days (where mean daily temperatures fell to as low as -6ºC) and found only a marginal decline in whole system performance. The median ASHP system efficiency was 2.44 on the coldest days of the year. 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by sidcow

[LondonLax]

They are very common in Scandinavia. I’m sure they will cope with U.K. winters. 

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

They are very common in Scandinavia. I’m sure they will cope with U.K. winters. 

Very different housing stock. Scandi homes tend to be much better insulated, less drafty and so on.

[sidcow]

13 hours ago, blandy said:

Very different housing stock. Scandi homes tend to be much better insulated, less drafty and so on.

If you read the actual report it states:

Quote

The data released by Energy Systems Catapult demonstrates that the HT ASHPs used in the Project performed with similar efficiencies to LT ASHPs. 

High temperature ASHPs – those which can achieve flow temperatures similar to that of a gas boiler – are seen as a viable solution for meeting the heating demand of a property, reducing the need for deeper retrofit and providing a potential solution for less efficient homes.

 

[sidcow]

Rather like batteries heat pumps are only going to get more efficient and cheaper. 

Really the only thing hiding them back is the need to revert back to hot water tanks and the ludicrous state of the energy market making electricity artificially high. 

There are issues with properly trained installers but that's obviously going to take time with retraining.  Everything I've seen suggests the installer is the most important thing.  They need to actually design the system properly unlike boilers where they'd just chuck in an oversized boiler. 

[villakram]

7 hours ago, sidcow said:

Rather like batteries heat pumps are only going to get more efficient and cheaper. 

Really the only thing hiding them back is the need to revert back to hot water tanks and the ludicrous state of the energy market making electricity artificially high. 

There are issues with properly trained installers but that's obviously going to take time with retraining.  Everything I've seen suggests the installer is the most important thing.  They need to actually design the system properly unlike boilers where they'd just chuck in an oversized boiler. 

A second pump for the water tank is an option, but some elec backup will aways be necessary, e.g., there's a this old house episode where they add a portable heat pump to a big old US style water tank. 2nd vid is an all in one unit.

 

 

[sne]

 

Quote

There is a heat wave going on in the world's oceans. Surface temperatures are the highest since satellite measurements began. These are ominous signals of a possible, upcoming "Super-El Nino". But it's what happens in the longer term, deep down, that should really worry us.

It's easy to become concerned when the reports about the state of the world's oceans trickle in.

The seas do us such a huge service; as much as 90 percent of the excess heat trapped on Earth by carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases is swallowed up by the oceans.

As carefree (or irresponsible) teenagers, we can behave a little as we please - there is someone who picks us up and puts us away.

The energy absorbed by the oceans is equivalent to the detonation of five Hiroshima bombs - per second . It's as if every person on earth, a little over eight billion people, constantly miked 100 frozen pizzas at the same time. Around the clock.

If all this heat energy had stayed in the atmosphere instead, we would have experienced a warming of 36 degrees.

It therefore does not come as a surprise that heat records are now being broken.

A few days ago, data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (Noaa) landed showing that the average sea surface temperature has been at 21.1 degrees since the beginning of April – beating the previous high of 21 degrees from 2016.

The only question is what the consequences are. New studies have been able to show how the warm water penetrates ever deeper.

Climate models around the world continue to flag a potential El Niño later this year as the trade winds slow down over the Pacific Ocean, giving surface water time to warm.

El Niño  affects climate and weather all over the world, usually with record temperatures as a result. Some speak of a "super-El Niño", which is characterized by very high temperatures in a central part of the Pacific Ocean.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/a/Mom2QM/bilden-visar-nagot-laskigt-vaxer-till-sig-under-havsytan

[bickster]

Quote

Volcanic microbe eats CO2 ‘astonishingly quickly’, say scientists
Discovery of carbon-capturing organism in hot springs could lead to efficient way of absorbing climate-heating gas

A microbe discovered in a volcanic hot spring gobbles up carbon dioxide “astonishingly quickly”, according to the scientists who found it.

The researchers hope to utilise microbes that have naturally evolved to absorb CO2 as an efficient way of removing the greenhouse gas from the atmosphere. Ending the burning of fossil fuels is critical in ending the climate crisis, but most scientists agree CO2 will also need to be sucked from the air to limit future damage.

The new microbe, a cyanobacteria, was discovered in September in volcanic seeps near the Italian island of Vulcano, where the water contains high levels of CO2. The researchers said the bug turned CO2 into biomass faster than any other known cyanobacteria. [...]

more on t'Guardian

[Talldarkandransome]

I did feel warmer today

Might have been the fleece I was wearing cos I can't afford to have the f***ing heat on

 

[TreeVillan]

14 hours ago, Talldarkandransome said:

I did feel warmer today

Might have been the fleece I was wearing cos I can't afford to have the f***ing heat on

 

Might be because we're in the middle.of spring.

[Marka Ragnos]

Denialism in action. A fool and his money ...

Quote

 

More homes have sold on Smith Island in the last three years than in the previous 11 combined, according to sales data. Locals see a story of hope. Their efforts to rescue a 400-year-old way of life tied to tide and season are beginning to bear fruit. Many question the doomsday predictions for the island or hope they can find a way to ride out rising waters.

Environmentalists see a dangerous kind of denialism. They say Smith Island’s long-term survival is doubtful, so the only rational path is retreat. They see the recent interest in the island as part of an unsettling national trend — studies show more Americans are moving into climate danger zones.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[villan-scott]

It’s getting hot in here…

[Demitri_C]

Well we certainly are having issues here with lack of rain over the last couple years during the warmer climates.  Leaves are falling earlier (and when they do fall they are weak and crumble due to the lack of rain)

Its becoming a massive problem. I was a bit sceptical before but think this could be truth not sure what the answers are tbh

[CVByrne]

I find it a strange obsession in the West about how much individuals believe or don't believe in man made impacts of Climate Change. 

We are reducing our carbon emissions and working towards transition to less fossil fuels and more sustainable renewable energy. We (the west) are doing our part but it doesn't matter. North America and Europe combined is half of Asia on terms of global emissions. 

So global warming will continue. We need to stop pretending lowering our emissions will have any material impact on reducing the warming. The only thing we can do and it's the end game also is make the technological breakthroughs needed to transition the world off fossil fuels.

Those are. Battery technology so we can store solar and wind power. Carbon trapping technology that takes less Co2 in energy than it traps. Finally the mega end game of nuclear fusion.

Other than that I don't understand why people get so upset about it and blocking traffic etc. You think blocking traffic and ruining Snooker will send the message to China and India that we really need them to stop economic growth now. Immediately.

It won't 

Edited July 6, 2023 by CVByrne

[sidcow]

13 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I find it a strange obsession in the West about how much individuals believe or don't believe in man made impacts of Climate Change. 

We are reducing our carbon emissions and working towards transition to less fossil fuels and more sustainable renewable energy. We (the west) are doing our part but it doesn't matter. North America and Europe combined is half of Asia on terms of global emissions. 

So global warming will continue. We need to stop pretending lowering our emissions will have any material impact on reducing the warming. The only thing we can do and it's the end game also is make the technological breakthroughs needed to transition the world off fossil fuels.

Those are. Battery technology so we can store solar and wind power. Carbon trapping technology that takes less Co2 in energy than it traps. Finally the mega end game of nuclear fusion.

Other than that I don't understand why people get so upset about it and blocking traffic etc. You think blocking traffic and ruining Snooker will send the message to China and India that we really need them to stop economic growth now. Immediately.

It won't 

China (easily the biggest state in Asia) is currently the words biggest  builder of renewable energy. 

I don't understand this attitude of we shouldn't bother because others in the world don't. 

So. We should just let the world burn and lead to extinction of all life on earth "because Asia aren't bothering" 

The fact is renewable energy is CHEAPER than fossil fuels.... A lot cheaper. 

Electric cars will very soon be cheaper than ICE vehicles. Cheaper to buy and much cheaper to run. 

The reason all this will is/will be cheaper is because The West and China have invested huge sums of money, led the way in development.  In doing this Asia will inevitably follow suit.  They are not going to proceed down the fossil fuel route when it costs them more money than just adopting renewables. 

And lastly, regardless of Global Warming. Even if you believe it's bullshit, renewable energy will save. Millions upon millions of lives and people's health because it's not creating pollution and pumping out poisonous gasses into people's lungs. 

[HKP90]

15 hours ago, CVByrne said:

I find it a strange obsession in the West about how much individuals believe or don't believe in man made impacts of Climate Change. 

We are reducing our carbon emissions and working towards transition to less fossil fuels and more sustainable renewable energy. We (the west) are doing our part but it doesn't matter. North America and Europe combined is half of Asia on terms of global emissions. 

So global warming will continue. We need to stop pretending lowering our emissions will have any material impact on reducing the warming. The only thing we can do and it's the end game also is make the technological breakthroughs needed to transition the world off fossil fuels.

Those are. Battery technology so we can store solar and wind power. Carbon trapping technology that takes less Co2 in energy than it traps. Finally the mega end game of nuclear fusion.

Other than that I don't understand why people get so upset about it and blocking traffic etc. You think blocking traffic and ruining Snooker will send the message to China and India that we really need them to stop economic growth now. Immediately.

It won't 

We are facing the environmental management paradox. The west prospered through years of industrial development, using fossil fuels to drive growth. We are now aware that Climate Change is a threat, and demand that third world countries scale back their use, whilst at the same time they are looking to become more self sufficient and advanced using technologies that rely upon them because they are the easiest to implement without an existing technology framework, and without extensive research. As far as they are concerned we are asking countries to voluntarily limit their own growth out of poverty to benefit everyone, whilst developed countries, who are years ahead in terms of renewables suffer relatively little. In reality all this could be resolved through distribution of technology and wealth, to enable the development of renewable infrastructure, but it won't because the mega rich, who are on boards of companies developing renewables (all 1st world) will see an opportunity to squeeze developing nations more, and keep ahead in the Nation race. 

More generally, I think the reason for pessimism around the response to Climate Change is that all this needed to have been done 20 years ago to avoid the death of billions. As it is, and with an additional 20 years of warming locked into the system even if we went net zero as a planet today (which of course we won't), that is looking increasingly inevitable without a rabbit out of the hat solution. And I say that with the heaviest of hearts. When I was studying it there just seemed like there would be more time, but things have moved faster than even pessimists would have predicted. 

All the above being said, there exists on this planet right now the science, technology, capital, engineering capacity and skill to prevent this becoming apocalyptic. Whilst I disagree broadly with their methods of protest, we do need to stop (as Tool said once) 'fretting for our lattes', and worrying about a 5 minute delay due to JSO, and get shit done. 

I'm waiting for someone to go on Radio 4 and say in response to any questions about how the greening of our economy may discomfort some section of society say 'what does it matter, if they are dead'. 

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

I don't understand this attitude of we shouldn't bother because others in the world don't. 

So. We should just let the world burn and lead to extinction of all life on earth "because Asia aren't bothering" . 

Did you even read my post at all? I said we are transitioning to green and it's absolutely the right thing we should do. We also need to invest more in technology advancements that benefit the world.

What my point was. Getting so worked up and worried about things with ridiculous protests. What will it achieve, getting a slightly better reduction for UK emissions which has essentially an irrelevant impact to the Global issue. 

Europe is doing more than anyone in transition to renewable. We should be proud of what we are doing rather than constantly worried about things we can't change which is the policy of other far far bigger countries 

[VILLAMARV]

On 06/07/2023 at 18:08, CVByrne said:

Other than that I don't understand why people get so upset about it and blocking traffic etc. You think blocking traffic and ruining Snooker will send the message to China and India that we really need them to stop economic growth now. Immediately.

It won't 

Yeah, literally nobody thinks that. This is a strawman argument.

On 06/07/2023 at 18:08, CVByrne said:

I find it a strange obsession in the West about how much individuals believe or don't believe in man made impacts of Climate Change. 

I also find it strange. But given that during the last 30odd years individuals have been presented with contradictory evidence, talking head salespeople spreading division through news media and successive governments enthralled by the corporate power of huge companies I find it hard to lay blame at the feet of those individuals. The bullshit evidence from tobacco companies claiming smoking wasn't causing illnesses bought them a lot of time to carry on regardless, but it wouldn't be right to blame individuals for believing it. The fraudulent activities of the corporation were the issue - and it was solely about protecting profits. I believe something similar is afoot here

On 07/07/2023 at 10:36, CVByrne said:

Getting so worked up and worried about things with ridiculous protests. What will it achieve, getting a slightly better reduction for UK emissions which has essentially an irrelevant impact to the Global issue. 

The ending there is veering into strawman territory again, eh. What protests achieve if they are successful is highlighting a cause, creating something that provokes thought and conversation. As was very much acheived by the Grand National protests for example. And proven by the thread on here having a couple of pages of a few people talking about who won or fell in a race and many pages more with loads of people discussing the issues they were trying to highlight.

The idea that protests are stupid because they wont affect real change is a reductionist argument that misses the point entirely.

In some instances, the appeal to individuals to think has ended up affecting real change of course. But it's not the sole reason to protest, it would be the end of a very very long process.

Why some protests are picked up on in the media and why some protests/marches/gatherings are ignored is an interesting question to me. It's not an accident. It's also not an accident that media run with 'hate the messenger' coverage at the same time as our government is trying to pass ever more Laws around stopping dissent.

If you don't like protests or protesters then cool, there's a thread for that. But inventing answers to questions nobody is asking seems a strange way to vocalise it.

 

 

[Follyfoot]

On 17/03/2023 at 08:26, sidcow said:

Rather like batteries heat pumps are only going to get more efficient and cheaper. 

Really the only thing hiding them back is the need to revert back to hot water tanks and the ludicrous state of the energy market making electricity artificially high. 

There are issues with properly trained installers but that's obviously going to take time with retraining.  Everything I've seen suggests the installer is the most important thing.  They need to actually design the system properly unlike boilers where they'd just chuck in an oversized boiler. 

I would imagine it’s not that difficult, buy one off the bay and knock it up yourself?