Pre - Match Thread Cup Final 5 of 37

[VillaChris]

Tell me there's a sequence of results that could get us down to 11th by Sunday...

[HanoiVillan]

When we won at theirs last season, we 'won dirty' by digging in, taking chances on the counter, and them - as was standard under Potter at the time - playing lots of good football to the edge of the area and then wasting chance after chance after chance. Winning by digging in is precisely what we have not shown any ability at all to do this season. 

Against both Newcastle and Legia, we conceded immediately after kickoff. Against both Palace and Legia, we conceded immediately after half time. We cannot do this against Chelsea. Their fans have been booing the team, the manager, the owners, and the longer we can frustrate them the more toxic the atmosphere will get and the more tension they'll play with. But if we turn up with an attacking mindset and no defensive organisation and they score, we'll see an immediate pressure release and it really wouldn't surprise me in that event if we do go on to concede 3+ again, as we seem to be incapable of tightening as the game goes on. 

Our defence is a major concern, both the personnel, the shape, the form of the defenders and the players immediately in front of them. Fix that and we can win this game, but I expect us to fail to fix it and Chelsea to win 2 or 3-1. 

[Leeroy]

I'd be tempted to go like this:

Martinez

Cash Konsa Pau Moreno

Luiz McGinn

Zaniolo Diaby Ramsey

Watkins

 

But that will depend on if Moreno is match fit yet (he hasn't come on the last 2 games he's been in the squad) and likewise for Ramsey, although he got 30 minutes last night so should be good for 60-70 minutes.

 

Kamara has been poor this season and quite frankly looks moody and disinterested. He should be sent to the bench for a few games until he gets his act together, didn't even celebrate when we scored the third against Palace and that is totally unacceptable. He was fantastic last season and it's a shame his standards have dropped so much, but he shouldn't be starting if he is putting in such dire performances. I partly blame our defence being so bad because Kamara has been so bad. 

 

We just cannot lose this game. Chelsea are in desperation mode and we cannot allow them three points off us when they can't get them off inferior sides like Forest and Bournemouth. We need a reaction to last night and I expect to see one. I'll be ok with a draw but if we lose this game I'll be fuming. Our defence simply cannot be shipping goals to this Chelsea team who cannot score for toffee against anyone else. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Leeroy

[duke313]

5 hours ago, villan95 said:

Keep a clean sheet first and foremost then take it from there

My team for Chelsea:

Martinez - Olsen
Cash - Konsa - Mings on crutches - Pau - Digne
McGinn- Donck - Kamara - Luiz

[VILLAMARV]

Really interested to see the reaction from a few of them. Especially those rested.

[Herman22]

I think we have to get back to basics for this one. Chelsea have had a poor start to the season but are still a good team with some real talent. 

Emi

Cash Konsa Pau Digne

Kamara Luiz

Diaby McGinn Bailey

Watkins

I don’t think Moreno is fit enough to start but should be given 30mins. If things aren’t going well we have JJ, Zaniolo, Duran and Youri to come off the bench. 

[duke313]

2 hours ago, Herman22 said:

I think we have to get back to basics for this one. Chelsea have had a poor start to the season but are still a good team with some real talent. 

Emi

Cash Konsa Pau Digne

Kamara Luiz

Diaby McGinn Bailey

Watkins

I don’t think Moreno is fit enough to start but should be given 30mins. If things aren’t going well we have JJ, Zaniolo, Duran and Youri to come off the bench. 

Drop Kamara, switch him with McGinn and play Zaniolo as the 10

Martinez
Cash - Konsa - Pau - Digne
McGinn - Luiz
Diaby - Zaniolo - Bailey
Watkins

[WakefieldVillan]

14 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Wasn't Moreno again an unused sub tonight? I really can't see him on the back of 0 minutes since mid May suddenly been thrown in against Sterling.

Everton is more realistic game for him to start, probably Ramsey aswell.

Aside from that probably the team we'll pick with possibly Bailey getting the nod although we see his usual standard away. Zaniolo is getting there but against this type of opponent he might keep giving the ball away unnecessarily. 

Maybe we'll go 3 at the back instead as Chelsea might play that formation.

I agree about Moreno, doesn't bode well for him starting with no minutes last night or previously - It was more wishful thinking that inclusion.

[andym]

4 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

When we won at theirs last season, we 'won dirty' by digging in, taking chances on the counter, and them - as was standard under Potter at the time - playing lots of good football to the edge of the area and then wasting chance after chance after chance. Winning by digging in is precisely what we have not shown any ability at all to do this season. 

Against both Newcastle and Legia, we conceded immediately after kickoff. Against both Palace and Legia, we conceded immediately after half time. We cannot do this against Chelsea. Their fans have been booing the team, the manager, the owners, and the longer we can frustrate them the more toxic the atmosphere will get and the more tension they'll play with. But if we turn up with an attacking mindset and no defensive organisation and they score, we'll see an immediate pressure release and it really wouldn't surprise me in that event if we do go on to concede 3+ again, as we seem to be incapable of tightening as the game goes on. 

Our defence is a major concern, both the personnel, the shape, the form of the defenders and the players immediately in front of them. Fix that and we can win this game, but I expect us to fail to fix it and Chelsea to win 2 or 3-1. 

It will help massively if we don't have players half asleep from the whistle and letting opposition players run completely free into dangerous locations - Kamara did it against Newcastle, Digne last night. We weren't switched on for the corner against Liverpool (Cash's attempt to win the near post header was almost comical in how badly timed his jump was). Against Palace, Pau got all the blame, but Konsa and Cash were super slow to react to the situation and allowed Edouard to run free between them. 

[fightoffyour]

19 hours ago, AVTuco said:

No hope for us. Their players are far superior. 4-5 goal win for Chelsea.

Hi Steve 

[Marka Ragnos]

A "twisted" 1-4-2-2-2.

Digne should start. He blew it yesterday, but he also helps create goals for us, and I think he'll do well vs. Chelsea. I like Ollie, but if he's not scoring goals, and Duran is, Duran should start. We need to be ruthless, not sentimental. For subs, I like @duke313's set-up, with Watkins coming on for Duran, Kamara coming off, and Zaniolo coming in for an attacking CM role. My formation has some superficial similarities to Vicente Del Bosque's Euro 2012 winning Spain "false 9" side, but I'm not advocating those tactics. I like this set up partly because it builds on positive patterns we've already been able to use successfully, especially Bailey and Diaby playing off each other, and Duran well placed to accelerate in short stabs the way he does, similar to Falcao. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[duke313]

15 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

A "twisted" 1-4-2-2-2.

Digne should start. He blew it yesterday, but he also helps create goals for us, and I think he'll do well vs. Chelsea. I like Ollie, but if he's not scoring goals, and Duran is, Duran should start. We need to be ruthless, not sentimental. For subs, I like @duke313's set-up, with Watkins coming on for Duran, Kamara coming off, and Zaniolo coming in for an attacking CM role. My formation has some superficial similarities to Vicente Del Bosque's Euro 2012 winning Spain "false 9" side, but I'm not advocating those tactics.

I wouldn't be opposed to Duran starting against Chelsea, but I think i'd give Ollie another chance.  He might not have scored and has missed a few, but he's getting in the right areas and is contributing assists if nothing else.

[oishiiniku_uk]

I'm not sure I believe the talk about 'Chelsea should be higher up the table based on the underlying stats.' They've only had significantly better XG and shots in two games (vs Luton and Forest) and the Luton game has padded their stats both in terms of goals scored (3 of 5) and big chances created (5 of 12). I watched the game vs Bournemouth which was pretty open in the midfield (Bournemouth pressed with a front four but left a lot of space behind it), but Chelsea looked really hesitant and lacking in ideas when they got near their opponent's goal. There's just no understanding between the players yet and I think we can definitely exploit that. Midfield seems a particular issue so far - Poch doesn't seem to know what the right combination is. And Thiago Silva's finally starting to look a bit suspect (in a back four especially). I'm confident we can get goals, but I also have little confidence in our ability to defend well (unless we play a more pragmatic game, which is unlikely). So, I'll go for 1-1 with both teams missing significant chances.

Edited September 22, 2023 by oishiiniku_uk

[tinker]

3 hours ago, duke313 said:

Drop Kamara, switch him with McGinn and play Zaniolo as the 10

Martinez
Cash - Konsa - Pau - Digne
McGinn - Luiz
Diaby - Zaniolo - Bailey
Watkins

Starting with 4 forward minded players is killing us in the middle and costing us cover for defence.

Buendia had a strong defensive nature to his play as well as offering an offensive threat, we're missing that defensive work.

I think we need to play at least an extra midfielder and drop Bailey and maybe even Zaniolo as well. Start with Kamara and Ramsey instead, alongside McGinn and Doug. 

 

[ferguson1]

2 minutes ago, tinker said:

Start with Kamara and Ramsey, alongside McGinn and Doug. 

 

Has to be these four in the middle on Sunday I reckon. Perhaps we may see the back six return out of possession as well? Got to stop conceding. 

[tinker]

14 minutes ago, ferguson1 said:

Has to be these four in the middle on Sunday I reckon. Perhaps we may see the back six return out of possession as well? Got to stop conceding. 

It's in transition we're struggling to keep pace but the cover from the middle was lacking, badly. We need that cover to track runners coming straight though us unmarked, it was clearly evident on Thursday that no one was willing to track back.

Any 1 of those 4 midfielders are a capable attacking threat as well as offering more cover defensively, if they are tasked that responsibility...

If we continue to surrender the midfield area then  we are going to leak goals. Our only hope is to outscore the opposition, away from home that's very difficult to do. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

The team almost (with a few exceptions) picks itself. Squad isn’t as strong as we’d want it to be but I guess that’s the same with most  clubs trying to push on and break in to the top 6. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Vive_La_Villa

[tinker]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

The team almost (with a few exceptions) picks itself. Squad isn’t as strong as we’d want it to be but I guess that’s the same with most  clubs trying to push on and break in to the top 6. 

It doesn't though, the options most posters are proposing are an attacking dream but a defensive nightmare. We need to stop leaking goals and build an attacking force from a solid base.

[ender4]

5 hours ago, duke313 said:

Drop Kamara, switch him with McGinn and play Zaniolo as the 10

Martinez
Cash - Konsa - Pau - Digne
McGinn - Luiz
Diaby - Zaniolo - Bailey
Watkins

I like this idea of the back 6 (7 inc Martinez).

I also agree start with Digne rather than Moreno.

But Bailey on the left?  Rather someone else if possible. 

[ender4]

24 minutes ago, tinker said:

It doesn't though, the options most posters are proposing are an attacking dream but a defensive nightmare. We need to stop leaking goals and build an attacking force from a solid base.

Yes we need to play this one defensively for at least the first half.  Counter when possible and let Zani/Ramsey/Diaby create a moment of magic rather than trying to force the whole team forward and leaving gaps in defence.