Ratings & Reactions: Southampton v Villa

[skell]

8 hours ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Have you watched the last 5 games? 

Yes. Have you seen the players we havent been able to play?

[skell]

8 hours ago, TomC said:

Missing Dougie has clearly hurt us the last two matches. Missing Konsa hurt us tonight. But the problems go deeper. If we get a run with our best players healthy, we should avoid relegation, but top half of the table is looking very unlikely.

 

This team should be top half easily. I think we can be top half easily.  Watch this space!

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

Everyone listen to some music on a bose system and smoke some chronic. Highly recommend it

[Tommo_b]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

That means they would risk the club staying in the Prem. ...I don't think they will do that.

There is that much wrong, I can't see Dean changing it.

I just don’t see them sacking him regardless.

[AvfcRigo82]

4 minutes ago, Blasterpocket68 said:

So it’s stick or twist time ! Will the board hold their nerve ?
 This was supposedly  our cup final  where we came out fighting but all we got was another poor  performance in that first half . We were very lucky Southampton we’re not out of site. It was another good goal to be fair .We had good spell in the second half but this isn’t enough. Players are lacking confidence that’s clear but it’s so disappointing again to see how poorly we were initially set up with some players really just passengers in that first half  . 
 

I’ve seen glimpse of a response from the players but something is seriously wrong in the coaching of our team and has been for some time   . Sadly I’m now of the opinion we need to make the change . 

Last night's second half reminded me of a game you would see in the last day of the season by a team throwing everything but the kitchen sink in order to survive relegation.

In this case it was Dean trying to save his job.

Throwing on Archer and Davis to go alongside Watkins in a hope one of them would score shows the desperate measures being resorted to.

 As for the coaching team, they also need to relieve Aaron Danks, Craig Shakespeare and Austin McPhee of their duties the same time as they do Smith.

I imagine that any new manager will want to bring his own coaching team in.

[skell]

9 hours ago, AVTuco said:

The one who gets the best player wins the trade.

I believe the 3 big signings have had 35 minutes on the pitch together. Think about that 

[punkiller1981]

9 hours ago, maqroll said:

This collapse is making me **** depressed. This was not in the script for this season. We are back to being shit again, apparently. 

Because Jack carried us and it hid how poor our midfield was and is 

[Nicho]

We had 6 youth team players on the bench. The squad isn’t as strong as we think it is.

Doesnt excuse the form or performances but if he does stay we should realign expectations.

[allani]

7 hours ago, TRO said:

Nepotism, is the only thing, stopping it.

I don't think the fans will be the hangman, this time.....and nor should they be......The management are the ones who should make that decision, unaided by the fans.

If a club is run properly, with reasonable ambition, its shouldn't take flirting with relegation or mass revolt from disgruntled fans......They have a team of Data Analysts and will see the mood in the camp(BMH) to make such a decision.

Why should we put years of hard work at risk, by burning up fixtures knowing in our heart, we are going to lose.....if we go in to the bottom 3 with Dean, we only have ourselves to blame, for sitting on our hands...procrastination is not the answer, even if a new manager is a gamble too.

Right now, you and me could get these results.

I think one of the biggest problems we have had over the years, is appointing managers on the back  of a poor run of results or poor league position.....and the recruitment is then iffy.

The top teams have the foresight the change, when they are doing ok, but not great.....thats the difference in mentality.

 

I am not sure it is purely nepotism.  Smith has done a very good job getting us promoted, keeping us up and raising our expectations to the point that we are even considering top half finishes.  Yes he has been backed extremely well in the transfer market and there will always be that "was it Smith or was it Jack" issue given the massive difference in our performances with him out of the team - but Smith deserves huge credit for getting our club back.  I have reservations and concerns but I certainly feel very differently to how I did about Bruce, Sherwood, etc.  I want to be able to look back at Smith's tenure and say that he did a good job for us.  I don't think we will get relegated if he stays but by the same token I don't think he will get us into Europe.  We will almost certainly hit a run of form that gets us enough points to stay clear of real danger.  I see him in much the same way as I see a player like McGinn.  A massive part of us rediscovering ourselves as a football club, someone who (on their day) can be really exciting and has delivered some amazing results that I look back on fondly.  However, also hugely inconsistent and unable to exert their influence when up against it.  He's a good manager but I think he has reached his ceiling.  It would have been ruthless but I think the time to act was in the summer when we had the opportunity to replace Smith (and McGinn) with a genuine up and coming star.

I was amazed that Bruce got another decent job after us.  I really hope that Smith does.  I also hope that he leaves before he is subjected to some of the ire that previous managers have faced.  He doesn't deserve that.  But by the same token I don't think he has done enough to fulfill the ambitions that he and the Board have expressed, so whilst the summer would have been the right time (but like you say a very ruthless time), we need to act quickly now.

[allani]

12 minutes ago, Nicho said:

We had 6 youth team players on the bench. The squad isn’t as strong as we think it is.

Doesnt excuse the form or performances but if he does stay we should realign expectations.

But we have sent a decent right back out on loan (although to be fair Matty Cash is the least of our problems at the moment), it has been obvious to many that our central midfield needed strengthening because whilst we have numbers there we don't have anyone who can dominate the middle of the pitch and allow the others to concentrate on the things that they are good at, almost everyone said that we needed competition at left back and another central defender for when Konsa or Mings are suspended, injured, out of form.  All of those things could have been sorted over the summer regardless of whether Jack stayed or went.  For some reason we didn't do any of them.  Now I just cannot believe, based on what they have said, that Dean was not in a position to tell the Board that that was what he needed and / or to highlight the type of player that he wanted in those positions.  So if the squad isn't good enough that is not something that should be letting Dean "off the hook".  Also if you run through the Southampton team and the Villa team player by player - how many of their players would get into a combined best XI?  The answer is not many.

[WallisFrizz]

1 hour ago, allani said:

I am not sure it is purely nepotism.  Smith has done a very good job getting us promoted, keeping us up and raising our expectations to the point that we are even considering top half finishes.  Yes he has been backed extremely well in the transfer market and there will always be that "was it Smith or was it Jack" issue given the massive difference in our performances with him out of the team - but Smith deserves huge credit for getting our club back.  I have reservations and concerns but I certainly feel very differently to how I did about Bruce, Sherwood, etc.  I want to be able to look back at Smith's tenure and say that he did a good job for us.  I don't think we will get relegated if he stays but by the same token I don't think he will get us into Europe.  We will almost certainly hit a run of form that gets us enough points to stay clear of real danger.  I see him in much the same way as I see a player like McGinn.  A massive part of us rediscovering ourselves as a football club, someone who (on their day) can be really exciting and has delivered some amazing results that I look back on fondly.  However, also hugely inconsistent and unable to exert their influence when up against it.  He's a good manager but I think he has reached his ceiling.  It would have been ruthless but I think the time to act was in the summer when we had the opportunity to replace Smith (and McGinn) with a genuine up and coming star.

I was amazed that Bruce got another decent job after us.  I really hope that Smith does.  I also hope that he leaves before he is subjected to some of the ire that previous managers have faced.  He doesn't deserve that.  But by the same token I don't think he has done enough to fulfill the ambitions that he and the Board have expressed, so whilst the summer would have been the right time (but like you say a very ruthless time), we need to act quickly now.

Excellent post, I agree with all of it. 

[PaulC]

10 hours ago, TRO said:

so do we sleep walk in to relegation?....we need to get our finger out then.

Yes its the past the point where we can afford to wait until a suitable manager becomes available. you cant stick with something thats broken. 

[OutByEaster?]

10 hours ago, TRO said:

Nepotism, is the only thing, stopping it.

Erm...so you're saying that Dean had packed the away end at Southampton with his family and immediate friends?

 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, allani said:

I am not sure it is purely nepotism.  Smith has done a very good job getting us promoted, keeping us up and raising our expectations to the point that we are even considering top half finishes.  Yes he has been backed extremely well in the transfer market and there will always be that "was it Smith or was it Jack" issue given the massive difference in our performances with him out of the team - but Smith deserves huge credit for getting our club back.  I have reservations and concerns but I certainly feel very differently to how I did about Bruce, Sherwood, etc.  I want to be able to look back at Smith's tenure and say that he did a good job for us.  I don't think we will get relegated if he stays but by the same token I don't think he will get us into Europe.  We will almost certainly hit a run of form that gets us enough points to stay clear of real danger.  I see him in much the same way as I see a player like McGinn.  A massive part of us rediscovering ourselves as a football club, someone who (on their day) can be really exciting and has delivered some amazing results that I look back on fondly.  However, also hugely inconsistent and unable to exert their influence when up against it.  He's a good manager but I think he has reached his ceiling.  It would have been ruthless but I think the time to act was in the summer when we had the opportunity to replace Smith (and McGinn) with a genuine up and coming star.

I was amazed that Bruce got another decent job after us.  I really hope that Smith does.  I also hope that he leaves before he is subjected to some of the ire that previous managers have faced.  He doesn't deserve that.  But by the same token I don't think he has done enough to fulfill the ambitions that he and the Board have expressed, so whilst the summer would have been the right time (but like you say a very ruthless time), we need to act quickly now.

If I could forsee the future and be sure we won't go down.....I would say keep him and let him weather the storm, but I am not as confident as you that we will stay up....at this rate we will compete with 2015/16 season of 11 defeats on the bounce....thats how bad the perfomances from most of the team are...there is no conviction in their play.

Dean is essentially a safe pair of hands, sure he deserves credit for promotion and a cup final, but Dean is not a serial winner, with a winning managers mentality.....check out his match record, he has no consistency of winning. The 10 game run was ironical, when you look at his overall career stats.

I know I will get crucified for this, but I am not sure the majority of fanbase has a winning mentality, which influences the board.

There is no fool proof action, that ensures success and while it requires a plethora of skills to make a good manager, the best all have one thing in common, a winning mentality.....I don't think Dean has and its possibly spread to the players.

[TRO]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Erm...so you're saying that Dean had packed the away end at Southampton with his family and immediate friends?

 

Erm....No......but I couldn't think of a word that covered one of us, so Nepotism, was close...sorry, If I mislead you.

but I do think, " The one of us" is playing a part, in his defence.

Edited November 6, 2021 by TRO

[OutByEaster?]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

If I could forsee the future and be sure we won't go down.....I would say keep him and let him weather the storm, but I am not as confident as you that we will stay up....at this rate we will compete with 2015/16 season of 11 defeats on the bounce....thats how bad the perfomances from most of the team are...there is no conviction in their play.

Dean is essentially a safe pair of hands, sure he deserves credit for promotion and a cup final, but Dean is not a serial winner, with a winning managers mentality.....check out his match record, he has no consistency of winning. The 10 game run was ironical, when you look at his overall career stats.

I know I will get crucified for this, but I am not sure the majority of fanbase has a winning mentality, which influences the board.

There is no fool proof action, that ensures success and while it requires a plethora of skills to make a good manager, the best all have one thing in common, a winning mentality.....I don't think Dean has and its possibly spread to the players.

I think there's probably some truth in that - Dean's strengths as a man manager are in that he cares about his players, he encourages an atmosphere where they feel like a family, where they're supported and can develop - those are important tools, but right at the top, with the likes of Mourinho and Tuchel, there's also that little bit of something ruthless, Jose would treat you like family for four months then cut your throat in your sleep for a win. It's been clear for a while now that the players really like him and the player interviews from last night really underline that, it seems to be a really good atmosphere in which to work and develop - but maybe working and developing becomes the aim where the top managers will take the infliction of a bit of misery and hardship for a win. I always get the feeling that Pep would ruin your knees and shorten your career to get one good season out of you - Dean cares a bit more - maybe he's too nice a manager.

Of course, in times of better results, that's just styles and it might just be the pain of recent results that's making me feel that way.

[IrishVilla10]

4 hours ago, skell said:

Yes. Have you seen the players we havent been able to play?

Absolutely. But I’ve also seen us play lump ball all season. Leak goals all season, struggle to maintain possession all season and struggle to create chances all season. We have been absolutely shocking. Badly managed to the point I have zero faith that anyone coming back from injury is going to make a significant difference. We had one of the best defences in the league last season and no ones changed, we still have the same base of our team but we look miles off it. We’ve got to the point now we’ve had so many bad results our objective of top half football looks near impossible and it’s not good enough. Simple as that for me  and we’ve seen enough stats now to suggest this isn’t just a problem from this season. The warning signs were there last season when we took the huge dip in form. We have no consistency in results under Smith and we’ve seen that every year. Sure he may turn it around, but evidence suggests its only time before we see the bad results again

 

 

[BOF]

Losing with 12 men on the pitch is not good. Martinez outstanding. McGinn invisible. We are prone to terrible lapses and seem to get punished more often than not.

[TomC]

4 hours ago, Paul33 said:

Improved performance from Buendia - especially after playing out wide but still 5/10 as opposed to 2/10 and he gave away his main failing on 70 minutes by getting cramp ...... he is nowhere near physically fit enough to play at this level. Hopefully he and the club and their huge fitness/training/monitoring team will realise that Emi and quite a few others are nowhere near fit enough to play the two-way, high tempo, high-press game Smith is demanding of them ! 

Buendia does tend to run himself into the ground over the course of a match. You can't run a press at full tempo for 90 minutes. I can't remember who it was, maybe Jurgen Klopp, who said that you press heavily early in the match, but then pick and choose your moments as the match progresses.

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think there's probably some truth in that - Dean's strengths as a man manager are in that he cares about his players, he encourages an atmosphere where they feel like a family, where they're supported and can develop - those are important tools, but right at the top, with the likes of Mourinho and Tuchel, there's also that little bit of something ruthless, Jose would treat you like family for four months then cut your throat in your sleep for a win. It's been clear for a while now that the players really like him and the player interviews from last night really underline that, it seems to be a really good atmosphere in which to work and develop - but maybe working and developing becomes the aim where the top managers will take the infliction of a bit of misery and hardship for a win. I always get the feeling that Pep would ruin your knees and shorten your career to get one good season out of you - Dean cares a bit more - maybe he's too nice a manager.

 

That is precisely, my point.

As you know, I was close to Andy Gray and Bobby Mac at the time and the conflicting treatment Ron gave them was Stark.

I could write reams of instances, Ron was only interested in the first team, that swamped his thoughts and primarliy they was the only players he had time for.

I understand, your comments and they are true, in my view, but our fanbase have been brought up on swathes of defeats and poor runs, it' almost become the norm in our subconscious.

My Worry is, when we contemplate, getting rid of managers, when we are in the relegation zone, we are possibly excluding ourselves from a bit better quality......We have procrastinated and now, we are placing ourselves in danger, real danger.

Whilst, I agree with your comments above, Their ruthlessness may be a bit exaggerated to prove the point....These managers with a winning mentality, show enormous amounts of affection to their players, but that winning mentality, is bred on the training ground and in day to day work....Was it Jose? who started the shaking opponents hands after a game, its all mind games, but part of the process of getting in players heads.

We look at Chelsea, trundling a long, doing  ok with Frank,( fans favourite) a bit win one ,lose one.....but the hierarchy knew, he wasn't a winning manager...sure he was a self driven player under Jose, but not a winning mentality manager......they knew that, and before any rot set in, Wham!! he was gone. Thats why teams like that are at the top, Liverpool the same Brendan Rodgers was ok, not good enough, being OK at Liverpool.

You see how far we have to go to be, what we want to be......The whole establishment, needs a reset.......We have clubs like Southampton, with a fanbase of around 30,000, out competing us, they have lost 1 in the last 10 games to us.

This poor run, is not something new, its lurking below the surface, all the time.....and it has with previous managers and previous owners, its a state of mind......We have become a team lately, who has an excuse for everything and made losing close to acceptable, that is the biggest worry, an apathy is creeping in.

PS Just before the second World war, we had a perfectly good, diplomatic Prime minister in Neville Chamberlain,good poiltician..... He came back from Germany, with a claim that Hitler was a man he could do business with......( Fool)

If we never had the presence of mind to dispense with the nice, diplomatic, affable fool.....Britain could have become a vassal German state.....Thank god for Churchill..

Leaders have a quality, most of us want, but don't have......and they can be ok people too, but they don't suffer fools gladly.....nice guys do.

 

Edited November 6, 2021 by TRO