Zhan_Zhuang Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 1 minute ago, nick76 said: Ok thanks, different view to me but respect your view Not starting an argument, just chipping in... I'm glad he's looking better now, we did miss him against Manure especially first-half. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshie2000 Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 36 minutes ago, MotoMkali said: Yes. If mcginn was playing instead of Luiz yesterday we lose by a lot. If that fact or your opinion, while your able to see the future what's the lottery numbers, and why you not managing a team with such great in site. For me JJ is a couple of years of being 1st choice, he goes missing to often but expected at his age. IMHO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 14 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said: Not starting an argument, just chipping in... I'm glad he's looking better now, we did miss him against Manure especially first-half. No, I wasn’t looking for an argument either. I didn’t agree with your assessment of his history but that’s all cool. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, nick76 said: You really dislike McGinn, why? I think he’s one of the few players in our starting line up that has universal love for from the overwhelming majority of Villa fans and people don’t question if he’s in the line up because he’s there on merit but you just don’t like him…why? I’m intrigued. I like him as a person. But he has this unfounded reputation as a player. He doesn't track back and is incredibly undisciplined defensively. He either does a wild press out of shape or refuses to press as a unit which means he just gets passed around or makes his teammates jobs that much harder. He makes pointless fouls when we are about to win the ball back on the edge of the opponents area. I can only assume he does this because he doesn't want to sprint back if the man gets past Luiz, because there is no other explanation as to why he does it when we have a chance to win the ball in the final third and keep pressure on the opponent. He let's his man run so so often and whilst it was common from many of our players last season him and barkley were the biggest culprits. He dives like nobodies business, at least with jack it was a player clipping his heels or kicking him in the shins. With mcginn someone puts him under pressure and mcginn puts his bum out then falls over. He is so impatient when we are in possession that when we need to calm the game down he is a big liability because he will always look for the long ball rather than just calming it down and recycling it. He's so static off the ball and ball watches when other players have it. It's been that way since we joined the Premier league which is when I first noticed it (specifically against Everton our first victory - and everything down the left was so isolated because mcginn didn't come and show). It makes possession football so much harder and playing out the back so much harder as often there will only be the one outlet in Luiz and maybe one of our full backs. It is the case with our other midfielders but ramsey and the other who plays needs to do a better job of showing for the ball if we want to play out the back. Sanson did a good job of this against united and in both Chelsea games which is why we had good possession in those games compared to what we would normally have. He also has no stamina and is blowing chunks by 60 minutes. I've tried to make excuses for this but at this point it's ridiculous and should come off at this point in almost every game he plays because he just doesn't contribute much after this point. I think his lack of stamina is in general causes him to commit a lot of his fouls and pick up a lot of his bookings because he gets beat and he can't turn around and run back. He takes ridiculous 40 yard shots that he hasn't come close to scoring without a deflection since the championship. The only time he has was a deflection off of VVDs foot in the 7-2 vs Liverpool. And his other goals whilst a plus aren't enough to paper over the other flaws in his game. He also seems to get some goals and assists then not doing anything else the rest of the season. He did this last year and the year before (admittedly he was injured go half the last 20 games but it makes a big difference). I think mcginns general lack of discipline and effort in the moments it matters cost us a lot of points. And whilst he is better than someone like nakamba. I think he is no better than ramsey or Sanson and the likes of buendia, mings and Luiz [yet somehow people think he is better] are in the tier above him. Villatalk likes to focus on the highlights which is why someone like mcginn is revered, and people like mings are disliked. Because mings' big moments come from mistakes that happen just due to the volume of touches he gets, whereas mcginn only applies himself about 1/10 of the time and he makes it looks good. But football isn't about looking good or bad for small moments. It's about sustained impact on the game which mcginn just doesn't have. And hasn't had in ages. I can't think of a single game this season where he has been a positive on the pitch over 90 minutes. And I'm not jsut talking about 1 mistake here or there but I'm talking about sustained effort, which is generally what wins you games. Edited January 17, 2022 by MotoMkali 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, MotoMkali said: I like him as a person. But he has this unfounded reputation as a player. He doesn't track back and is incredibly undisciplined defensively. He either does a wild press out of shape or refuses to press as a unit which means he just gets passed around or makes his teammates jobs that much harder. He makes pointless fouls when we are about to win the ball back on the edge of the opponents area. I can only assume he does this because he doesn't want to sprint back if the man gets past Luiz, because there is no other explanation as to why he does it when we have a chance to win the ball in the final third and keep pressure on the opponent. He let's his man run so so often and whilst it was common from many of our players last season him and barkley were the biggest culprits. He dives like nobodies business, at least with jack it was a player clipping his heels or kicking him in the shins. With mcginn someone puts him under pressure and mcginn puts his bum out then falls over. He is so impatient when we are in possession that when we need to calm the game down he is a big liability because he will always look for the long ball rather than just calming it down and recycling it. He's so static off the ball and ball watches when other players have it. It's been that way since we joined the Premier league which is when I first noticed it (specifically against Everton our first victory - and everything down the left was so isolated because mcginn didn't come and show). It makes possession football so much harder and playing out the back so much harder as often there will only be the one outlet in Luiz and maybe one of our full backs. It is the case with our other midfielders but ramsey and the other who plays needs to do a better job of showing for the ball if we want to play out the back. Sanson did a good job of this against united and in both Chelsea games which is why we had good possession in those games compared to what we would normally have. He also has no stamina and is blowing chunks by 60 minutes. I've tried to make excuses for this but at this point it's ridiculous and should come off at this point in almost every game he plays because he just doesn't contribute much after this point. I think his lack of stamina is in general causes him to commit a lot of his fouls and pick up a lot of his bookings because he gets beat and he can't turn around and run back. He takes ridiculous 40 yard shots that he hasn't come close to scoring without a deflection since the championship. The only time he has was a deflection off of VVDs foot in the 7-2 vs Liverpool. And his other goals whilst a plus aren't enough to paper over the other flaws in his game. He also seems to get some goals and assists then not doing anything else the rest of the season. He did this last year and the year before (admittedly he was injured go half the last 20 games but it makes a big difference). I think mcginns general lack of discipline and effort in the moments it matters cost us a lot of points. And whilst he is better than someone like nakamba. I think he is no better than ramsey or Sanson and the likes of buendia, mings and Luiz are in the tier above him. Villatalk likes to focus on the highlights which is why someone like mcginn is revered, and people like mings are disliked. Because mings' big moments come from mistakes that happen just due to the volume of touches he gets, whereas mcginn only applies himself about 1/10 of the time and he makes it looks good. But football isn't about looking good or bad for small moments. It's about sustained impact on the game which mcginn just doesn't have. And hasn't had in ages. I can't think of a single game this season where he has been a positive on the pitch over 90 minutes. And I'm not jsut talking about 1 mistake here or there but I'm talking about sustained effort, which is generally what wins you games. War and Peace: Volume 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, MotoMkali said: I like him as a person. But he has this unfounded reputation as a player. He doesn't track back and is incredibly undisciplined defensively. He either does a wild press out of shape or refuses to press as a unit which means he just gets passed around or makes his teammates jobs that much harder. He makes pointless fouls when we are about to win the ball back on the edge of the opponents area. I can only assume he does this because he doesn't want to sprint back if the man gets past Luiz, because there is no other explanation as to why he does it when we have a chance to win the ball in the final third and keep pressure on the opponent. He let's his man run so so often and whilst it was common from many of our players last season him and barkley were the biggest culprits. He dives like nobodies business, at least with jack it was a player clipping his heels or kicking him in the shins. With mcginn someone puts him under pressure and mcginn puts his bum out then falls over. He is so impatient when we are in possession that when we need to calm the game down he is a big liability because he will always look for the long ball rather than just calming it down and recycling it. He's so static off the ball and ball watches when other players have it. It's been that way since we joined the Premier league which is when I first noticed it (specifically against Everton our first victory - and everything down the left was so isolated because mcginn didn't come and show). It makes possession football so much harder and playing out the back so much harder as often there will only be the one outlet in Luiz and maybe one of our full backs. It is the case with our other midfielders but ramsey and the other who plays needs to do a better job of showing for the ball if we want to play out the back. Sanson did a good job of this against united and in both Chelsea games which is why we had good possession in those games compared to what we would normally have. He also has no stamina and is blowing chunks by 60 minutes. I've tried to make excuses for this but at this point it's ridiculous and should come off at this point in almost every game he plays because he just doesn't contribute much after this point. I think his lack of stamina is in general causes him to commit a lot of his fouls and pick up a lot of his bookings because he gets beat and he can't turn around and run back. He takes ridiculous 40 yard shots that he hasn't come close to scoring without a deflection since the championship. The only time he has was a deflection off of VVDs foot in the 7-2 vs Liverpool. And his other goals whilst a plus aren't enough to paper over the other flaws in his game. He also seems to get some goals and assists then not doing anything else the rest of the season. He did this last year and the year before (admittedly he was injured go half the last 20 games but it makes a big difference). I think mcginns general lack of discipline and effort in the moments it matters cost us a lot of points. And whilst he is better than someone like nakamba. I think he is no better than ramsey or Sanson and the likes of buendia, mings and Luiz are in the tier above him. Villatalk likes to focus on the highlights which is why someone like mcginn is revered, and people like mings are disliked. Because mings' big moments come from mistakes that happen just due to the volume of touches he gets, whereas mcginn only applies himself about 1/10 of the time and he makes it looks good. But football isn't about looking good or bad for small moments. It's about sustained impact on the game which mcginn just doesn't have. And hasn't had in ages. I can't think of a single game this season where he has been a positive on the pitch over 90 minutes. And I'm not jsut talking about 1 mistake here or there but I'm talking about sustained effort, which is generally what wins you games. Thanks for the detailed reply. Interesting to see a different view of him and backed up fully with the assessment of each component. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, nick76 said: Thanks for the detailed reply. Interesting to see a different view of him and backed up fully with the assessment of each component. Also to add. A lot of these wouldn't be such an issue if he didn't play as a CM. See my support for El Ghazi. It's just when you are the engine room of the pitch you have the most important position and lack of effort and impact over a long time are amplified. Whereas if you are a winger you can score a goal, lose the ball 10 times do a small amount of defensive work and you've done your job. That's not the case with a central midfielder and it is why pogba can't play in midfield without Kante behind. In fact I'd say pogba and mcginn are very similar players, and pogba looked like a 100 mil player when he was playing left wing last season for the very reasons he looks gash when he plays as a CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Do you know what makes McGinn such a standout performer @MotoMkali? in my opinion, its that his ambition far exceeds his talent. He wants to make it happen. I don't agree with your assessment of McGinn, however I sincerely appreciate you posting it. Made for a good read and was food for thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 This has gone slightly off topic but McGinn is a better player than Luiz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 I think McGinn is fine if he continues his performance levels. Potentially Luiz can be better because he is already playing at this level years before McGinn, if he continues to develop, stays in the side and with better players around him then who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 GK: Martinez, Steer, New GK RB: Cash, KKH LB: Digne, Targett CB: Kona, Mings, Hause, New CB CDM: Nakamba, new CDM MF: McGinn, Sanson, Ramsey, Luiz, (Young?) AMC: Coutinho, Chukwuemeka, Buendia, Bailey CF: Watkins, Ings Surplus to requirements: Trez, AEG, Traore, Davis, Guilbert We then have 4/5 u23 players to supplement the numbers. I can see us selling Luiz in summer if he doesn't sign a new contract. We'd have 5 midfielders then but many players can also play in midfield. Young, Chukwuemeka, Buendia, Coutinho. Aaron Ramsey will be back too and around the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 11 hours ago, MotoMkali said: I like him as a person. But he has this unfounded reputation as a player. He doesn't track back and is incredibly undisciplined defensively. He either does a wild press out of shape or refuses to press as a unit which means he just gets passed around or makes his teammates jobs that much harder. He makes pointless fouls when we are about to win the ball back on the edge of the opponents area. I can only assume he does this because he doesn't want to sprint back if the man gets past Luiz, because there is no other explanation as to why he does it when we have a chance to win the ball in the final third and keep pressure on the opponent. He let's his man run so so often and whilst it was common from many of our players last season him and barkley were the biggest culprits. He dives like nobodies business, at least with jack it was a player clipping his heels or kicking him in the shins. With mcginn someone puts him under pressure and mcginn puts his bum out then falls over. He is so impatient when we are in possession that when we need to calm the game down he is a big liability because he will always look for the long ball rather than just calming it down and recycling it. He's so static off the ball and ball watches when other players have it. It's been that way since we joined the Premier league which is when I first noticed it (specifically against Everton our first victory - and everything down the left was so isolated because mcginn didn't come and show). It makes possession football so much harder and playing out the back so much harder as often there will only be the one outlet in Luiz and maybe one of our full backs. It is the case with our other midfielders but ramsey and the other who plays needs to do a better job of showing for the ball if we want to play out the back. Sanson did a good job of this against united and in both Chelsea games which is why we had good possession in those games compared to what we would normally have. He also has no stamina and is blowing chunks by 60 minutes. I've tried to make excuses for this but at this point it's ridiculous and should come off at this point in almost every game he plays because he just doesn't contribute much after this point. I think his lack of stamina is in general causes him to commit a lot of his fouls and pick up a lot of his bookings because he gets beat and he can't turn around and run back. He takes ridiculous 40 yard shots that he hasn't come close to scoring without a deflection since the championship. The only time he has was a deflection off of VVDs foot in the 7-2 vs Liverpool. And his other goals whilst a plus aren't enough to paper over the other flaws in his game. He also seems to get some goals and assists then not doing anything else the rest of the season. He did this last year and the year before (admittedly he was injured go half the last 20 games but it makes a big difference). I think mcginns general lack of discipline and effort in the moments it matters cost us a lot of points. And whilst he is better than someone like nakamba. I think he is no better than ramsey or Sanson and the likes of buendia, mings and Luiz [yet somehow people think he is better] are in the tier above him. Villatalk likes to focus on the highlights which is why someone like mcginn is revered, and people like mings are disliked. Because mings' big moments come from mistakes that happen just due to the volume of touches he gets, whereas mcginn only applies himself about 1/10 of the time and he makes it looks good. But football isn't about looking good or bad for small moments. It's about sustained impact on the game which mcginn just doesn't have. And hasn't had in ages. I can't think of a single game this season where he has been a positive on the pitch over 90 minutes. And I'm not jsut talking about 1 mistake here or there but I'm talking about sustained effort, which is generally what wins you games. I'm glad that I am not the only person to feel this way. However, in McGinn's defence I do think that the lack of a real DCM in the squad does not help him. He (and Luiz) are basically trying to cover a gap in our playing personnel that doesn't exploit their strengths and highlights their weaknesses and have been doing this for 2 or 3 seasons already. My two biggest issues with McGinn are (a) he is awful at tracking his man - he'll stand in front of an opponent wait for them to lay the ball off and then invariably lets that player then just go straight past him into open space. Almost like he's saying "he's not my man any more" and (b) on the ball he has two tactics - first run in a straight line until someone comes close, then he'll stick his arse out and try to spin 180 degrees and run the other way (or fall over hoping to win a free-kick) and the second is to try a floaty long ball to the opposite side of the pitch that fails 80% of the time. That said if we had a DCM in place then McGinn is able to play a little bit higher up the pitch and do his high press. He's so much more effective at this than he is deeper in his own half. With someone better at sweeping up behind him then when he is beaten and is out of position it shouldn't be quite as impactful. Although it does have to be said that it does bring him closer to Buendia who is also very good at pressing - I'm not sure whether the two of them would start bumping into each other or whether 2 men buzzing around that part of the pitch will really unsettle our opponents. On the attacking side with McGinn hopefully getting the ball slightly higher up the pitch - hopefully that does mean that he gets it closer to Buendia and Coutinho and so will get more involved in the interplay with them rather than feeling that he has to try and create something from too deep. Also one thing that you absolutely cannot take away from McGinn is his determination and commitment. If you just take his raw ability I think he is a pretty limited bottom half PL type midfielder. The fact that his performances (over a number of seasons) exceed his natural ability speaks volumes about him. If you could get McGinn's mentality and combine it with say JJ or Chuk's natural talent and ability - you'd have one hell of a player, genuinely top level. Which is why I am hoping that McGinn doesn't leave. I think he brings an awful lot to the club in terms of his personality, the mentality that our younger players can really benefit from. Gerrard has spoken about wanting more winners. I'm not sure that McGinn is likely to be a regular starter at a really top team so he isn't a winner in that respect BUT in terms of breaking through your natural ceiling and making the best of what you have - I do genuinely think that there aren't many better examples in the entire league out there at the moment. So even though I am coming to the view that there are more talented players coming through - I do think that there is a big role for McGinn to play. The question is whether he'll be happy if he doesn't feel that his is the first name on the team sheet. I have not seen anything to suggest that it would be an issue and suspect that it would spur him on to try even harder. And let's face it - if McGinn is the man looking to take your place in the first team, you know full well that you better be playing well because he will be harrying you for that shirt for all that he is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 3 hours ago, allani said: My two biggest issues with McGinn are (a) he is awful at tracking his man - he'll stand in front of an opponent wait for them to lay the ball off and then invariably lets that player then just go straight past him into open space. Almost like he's saying "he's not my man any more" To be fair, it could be that he's supposed to let them go. Our defence is zonal (95%+ are these days), and none of us are privy to the details of our tactics, so we can't always say for sure where the zones are and when someone is supposed to leave a man for the next zone. Certainly, if someone gets caught ball watching and loses their man near the goal in a dangerous situation, it's an obvious mistake. If your teammate in the adjacent zone is still recovering from an attack and isn't in his zone yet and you pass off your mark to an empty zone, it's an obvious mistake. But sometimes, letting the man go is what he's supposed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villabromsgrove Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Just imagine the freedom that our attacking midfielders could play with if they knew they had an athletic DM destroyer able to move quickly behind them to block any gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulMcGrath_5 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said: Just imagine the freedom that our attacking midfielders could play with if they knew they had an athletic DM destroyer able to move quickly behind them to block any gaps. Potential with this team is huge. Edited January 18, 2022 by PaulMcGrath_5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allani Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 2 hours ago, TomC said: To be fair, it could be that he's supposed to let them go. Our defence is zonal (95%+ are these days), and none of us are privy to the details of our tactics, so we can't always say for sure where the zones are and when someone is supposed to leave a man for the next zone. Certainly, if someone gets caught ball watching and loses their man near the goal in a dangerous situation, it's an obvious mistake. If your teammate in the adjacent zone is still recovering from an attack and isn't in his zone yet and you pass off your mark to an empty zone, it's an obvious mistake. But sometimes, letting the man go is what he's supposed to do. When you consider how many goals we have conceded this season from opposition midfielders scoring from around the edge of the area - it is either a very **** tactical mistake or our central defenders are expecting a midfielder to be picking those players up or at least being in the same zone. Our central defenders have not been getting enough support which is a major reason why we have conceded as many goals as we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 I do wonder if we're moving in the direction of a Liverpool/Man City in terms of our front line and are considering eschewing a traditional striker in favour of a more deep-lying forward who'll help in the build-up more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, lexicon said: I do wonder if we're moving in the direction of a Liverpool/Man City in terms of our front line and are considering eschewing a traditional striker in favour of a more deep-lying forward who'll help in the build-up more. Interesting, we could play a Buendia / Coutinho as a false 9 and a choice from Watkins/Ings/Bailey as the inside forwards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 10 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Interesting, we could play a Buendia / Coutinho as a false 9 and a choice from Watkins/Ings/Bailey as the inside forwards. Yup - was thinking about the other CAMs/Wingers as opposed to Watkins/Ings - to have players who are more comfortable on the ball/technical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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