Team shape, tactics and personnel

[CVByrne]

Just to add to my above post. One big issue we have is we lack a player from the defensive unit who can play the direct balls into the channels from the back. Martinez, Mings, Konsa, Nakamba aren't good enough to do that. The 8s like Luiz etc.. can. It's a must from the Martinez / Mings / Konsa group that we add that new CB who can do this to a high standard.

[MWARLEY2]

Thought Ramsey did ok without being outstanding yesterday . And i have one thing to suggest . That we swap him and McGinn over. Yesterday we played with inverted Central Midfielders and inverted 10s. 

It means everything gets congested in the centre . Which is fine . However ...

If you havent got the full backs giving width it stops expansive exciting football. 

Ramseys driving runs down the left get stopped when he has to check back onto his right as Targett isnt quick enough to outpace his opposing fullback. 

If we saw McGinn and Ramsey not having to check back onto their stronger foot it would give us the opportunity to get more balls into the box with more accuracy. 

I also think on the right Ramsey and Cash could cause havoc with their aggressiveness and pretty decent pace. 

[GingerCollins29]

The system can't be effective without the full backs or the dm to do it.

Without marv, we have no proper DM. Targett is not progressive enough to play that role. Cash has the potential to, but everytime he got forward yesterday, seemed to stutter and was unsure about getting the ball in quickly, kept turning back on himself

[sne]

The system he used at Rangers had 35 y.o, 5ft 7 behemoth Steven Davis playing in the sitting midfield position playing as DLP. 

Wouldn't work in the PL of course but maybe he won't be using a defensive anchorman in that role but rather a more rounded player who can build up play from the back?

[Guest av1]

39 minutes ago, sne said:

The system he used at Rangers had 35 y.o, 5ft 7 behemoth Steven Davis playing in the sitting midfield position playing as DLP. 

Wouldn't work in the PL of course but maybe he won't be using a defensive anchorman in that role but rather a more rounded player who can build up play from the back?

Possibly. That said (and I know it’s a very small sample size) Nakamba seemed to be his preferred choice in that role before injury. 

[sne]

1 minute ago, av1 said:

Possibly. That said (and I know it’s a very small sample size) Nakamba seemed to be his preferred choice in that role before injury. 

Yeah, but that might partly been down to Luiz, Sanson being out injured, sick and lacking match practice when Gerrard first came in? He basically had to play whoever was available in midfield. Still has I guess.

[Guest av1]

Just now, sne said:

Yeah, but that might partly been down to Luiz, Sanson being out injured, sick and lacking match practice when Gerrard first came in? He basically had to play whoever was available in midfield. Still has I guess.

Fair point. I just think that ultimately (and this might be a couple of windows away) if you want to play with 2 narrow wingers (10’s) and expect width to come from your fullbacks, the 6 needs to be a proper defensive type rather than the quarterback type. 
 

I know it worked at Rangers, but as you said, it’s a completely different situation. 

[sparrow1988]

2 hours ago, sne said:

The system he used at Rangers had 35 y.o, 5ft 7 behemoth Steven Davis playing in the sitting midfield position playing as DLP.

You forgot ginger.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, av1 said:

Possibly. That said (and I know it’s a very small sample size) Nakamba seemed to be his preferred choice in that role before injury. 

The reason for that is because under Smith a midfielder was always part of the attacking 4 / 5. While under Gerrard his attacking 5 are the full backs and the front 3.

With all 3 of the midfield 3 primarily set defensive roles this plays perfect to Nakamba's strengths. He was all energy and graft and aggression which set the tempo for the midfield. 

[CVByrne]

I think our front 3 will work once they get more time together on the training pitch on the football pitch. I think Ings Watkins Buendia once they get better at positional rotations will be nice complement to eachother. Especially as all three have excellent work rates. If Watkins runs the channels then Ings comes late into the box with Buendia playing the 10. 

They need to all be fit and have that training pitch time which hopefully this month they will. We've got 3 games this month so nice spacing between them atm and they're clearly going to start all the games this month too. 

[IrishVilla10]

4 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Nail on head. We should be picking a system that fits the players we have not forcing his sytem onto a squad if it's not equipped to play that way. You've addressed the No10 situation, but same for fullbacks. If you need two creative attacking fullbacks to provide the only real width, and you're wholly reliant on Targett and Cash, you're going to have a bad time.

Yesterday is the first result I've been really unhappy with since he joined, so I'm certainly not "getting on his back" as some say, but I'm hoping getting a bloody nose from a really rather unimpressive Brentford team gives him something to think about.

Should Gerrard and co have come down and continued with a 433 then? We’re a better team as a result of what they’re doing. The wins we’ve had proves that 

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Should Gerrard and co have come down and continued with a 433 then? We’re a better team as a result of what they’re doing. The wins we’ve had proves that 

Do you think the only problem we had under Smith was the formation then?

I'm not bashing Gerrard, so far he's done better than I'd expected, and I can see why he'd want to use his system and see how these players adapt. Brentford has so far been the only game we've lost that I really thought we should be looking to seriously get points from, but if he can't get the best out of these players with his system, the system needs to change until he's got the players to implement it.

[M_Afro]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

Do you think the only problem we had under Smith was the formation then?

I'm not bashing Gerrard, so far he's done better than I'd expected, and I can see why he'd want to use his system and see how these players adapt. Brentford has so far been the only game we've lost that I really thought we should be looking to seriously get points from, but if he can't get the best out of these players with his system, the system needs to change until he's got the players to implement it.

I don’t agree at all. I think 4-3-3 is the best formation for our squad. We don’t have the defenders to play 5-3-2. We don’t have the midfielders to play 4-2-2. Any attempt to play 4-2-3-1 without Grealish has been absolutely shambolic. There are other variations but I think they are even more unsuitable. 
Out of interest, what would your preferred formation be?

[Davkaus]

12 minutes ago, M_Afro said:

I don’t agree at all. I think 4-3-3 is the best formation for our squad. We don’t have the defenders to play 5-3-2. We don’t have the midfielders to play 4-2-2. Any attempt to play 4-2-3-1 without Grealish has been absolutely shambolic. There are other variations but I think they are even more unsuitable. 
Out of interest, what would your preferred formation be?

I'd like to see us give a proper go 4-3-3/4-5-1 with our wingers, reducing the dependency on Cash and Targett to provide the width, we've never really had the fit first 11 to try it with decent wingers. It does leave one of Watkins or Ings out, but that needs to happen anyway, and it raises the question of where Buendia plays. The more I think of it, the more of a mess our summer business looks.

[M_Afro]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

I'd like to see us give a proper go 4-3-3/4-5-1 with our wingers, reducing the dependency on Cash and Targett to provide the width, we've never really had the fit first 11 to try it with decent wingers. It does leave one of Watkins or Ings out, but that needs to happen anyway, and it raises the question of where Buendia plays. The more I think of it, the more of a mess our summer business looks.

Agree about Watkins and Ings. I just think if you are going to play with 2 wingers, firstly your wingers need to be really good and secondly you really need two combative defensive centre mids. I don’t see us being able to tick either of those boxes at the moment.

I also agree that our summer business was  a bit of a mess. Our midfield was the area that really needed addressing and we ignored it. We then replaced our left attacking forward and best player with two right attacking forwards and a centre forward! Bonkers!

[IrishVilla10]

3 hours ago, Davkaus said:

Do you think the only problem we had under Smith was the formation then?

I'm not bashing Gerrard, so far he's done better than I'd expected, and I can see why he'd want to use his system and see how these players adapt. Brentford has so far been the only game we've lost that I really thought we should be looking to seriously get points from, but if he can't get the best out of these players with his system, the system needs to change until he's got the players to implement it.

I’m not even sure if it was the problem. We didn’t look like we knew what we were doing, which was unacceptable given smiths had been with some of our players for 3 seasons. Surely if Gerrards had 8 games and Brentford’s the only one we’ve come away feeling like this then the system has been fine. I don’t think changing it is the answer at all 

[TRO]

On 03/01/2022 at 02:12, Tom13 said:

Mountain out of a molehill in here by many.

Smith was not more expansive IMO. Without Grealish, he served up dross football on a regular basis.

Gerrard has us more comfortable on the ball than we saw under Smith this season at all.

If we'd have won today, which we could easily have done, noone would be on his back. We've looked a much stronger outfit in away games, under Smith we would serve up pathetic toothless performances away from home way too often, where we could hardly string two passes together.

PS I'm sick of conceding shots from outside the area that fly into the corner.

Thats because "off the ball", we leave a lot to be desired.....we simply don't close down with any gusto....we allow teams to play, too readily, we was so,so easy to beat on Sunday, something I thought SG had fixed, but maybe Tyrone was too much of a miss.

This team in terms of players, is still Dean Smiths Team......and the assembly of players is still imbalanced, until we bring players in.

Its not that easy to fix things with just talk, he needs additional players, who can address our shortfalls.

In my honest opinion, Targett was never the answer, Jack covered his weaknesses......Hause has finally put to bed any doubts any of us had of betterment, he showed perfectly, why he has been in the stiffs for so long...and the midfield was back to being easy to navigate through.

We have bought too many players with similar attributes, it will take time and money, to bring some diversity back to the fold.....I find it amusing, that we are reaching for Nakamba as the reason for our poor showing, it might be right, but never the less amusing to think he was public enemy no 1, not so long back.

We need a quality, CDM and LB as a priority....urgent need.

[Sam-AVFC]

3 hours ago, tomav84 said:

we say this only with hindsight though. at the time trez was a good sub. we know he works hard and has a goal in him. we won't see him for a while though after that, irrespective of AFCON

Speak for yourself. I can't think of a scenario he'd ever be a good sub apart from if we're comfortably winning and he needs match fitness.

[Phil Silvers]

3 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Speak for yourself. I can't think of a scenario he'd ever be a good sub apart from if we're comfortably winning and he needs match fitness.

Some are blinded by him being in the right place at the right and bagging a couple of important goals for us. He is not a premier League player and never will be.

[villalad21]

5 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Speak for yourself. I can't think of a scenario he'd ever be a good sub apart from if we're comfortably winning and he needs match fitness.

We don't need him we've got better players like Carney and Bidace so screw his match fitness. 

Just another one of Susos disastrous signings. Hopefully we sell him in the summer at the latest. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by villalad21