Team shape, tactics and personnel

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 minutes ago, Risso said:

The recruitment has been fine, short of the top quality defensive midfielder we really need. We don't stand a chance though when a so called professional manager sticks with a horrendous 5-3-2 through thick and thin. How anyboy even with a vague understanding of the game could leave our team and formation unchanged until half time tonight, lord only knows. He deserves the sack for that alone.

We've used it for like, 5 games? 6? It worked for the first 3 of those, even if I think the United result flattered us. 

It should have been changed for today, I cannot begin to understand why he stuck with it after the debacle of last weekend. But I don't think we need to reinvent history. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, Davkaus said:

Well, we also have Traore out, and Buendia was off on his covid adventures. What were we meant to do, have Watkins and El Ghazi a sour wide options?

Buendia has started the last two games? Is Jaden Philogene-Bidace ded? 

Watkins left, Buendia/JPB right. Solved the conundrum. 

[M_Afro]

3 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

And when Bailey is fit and starting next game and the formation is changed unfortunately too many fans won't see the connection... 

Sorry mate but this is nonsense. We have umpteen players suitable to a 4-3-3. We do not need Bailey fit for it. We could have played it all season. Smith is clearly too gutless to drop a centre half ( all of whom deserve dropping on current form) or either Ings or Watkins ( neither have been good so far). Show some minerals Dean. It’s last chance saloon mate.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

Looks like we've tried to mix it up and it's failed 

But in fairness Watkins and Buendia aren't firing yet, I think due to injuries and a poor pre season, they have no form

Bailey will make a huge difference to this team, I think traore would make enough of a difference too

We get Bailey - Ings - Traore upfront next month and then see how poor we look, I really think we will look like a completely different team and that's when I'll judge him, this team will swing a few times this season, thus lull won't last forever 

It's a squad game. We were supposed to be moving away from relying so heavily on a first XI, or individuals, yet we appear to be falling into the same trap. Only this time, the individuals in question aren't as good as the one who left. 

I love Traore, he's absolute banter, but if he's the one we are waiting on we are in a heap of trouble. 

[villa4europe]

Just now, M_Afro said:

Sorry mate but this is nonsense. We have umpteen players suitable to a 4-3-3. We do not need Bailey fit for it. We could have played it all season. Smith is clearly too gutless to drop a centre half ( all of whom deserve dropping on current form) or either Ings or Watkins ( neither have been good so far). Show some minerals Dean. It’s last chance saloon mate.

Disagree

We have players players who can play out position and fit a 4-3-3 

Watkins is not a left winger, neither is young, El Ghazi is not a right winger, maybe he should have tried PB but that is what it is

Buendia, traore and Bailey have all missed too many games this season to get consistent use of a strong 4-3-3 line up 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, MWARLEY2 said:

 

Why is 352 a very rarely used system these days in world football. Is it because it doesnt work as well against modern football ? 

 

No. The European Champions play with a back 3, for example. 

[Davkaus]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Buendia has started the last two games? Is Jaden Philogene-Bidace ded? 

Watkins left, Buendia/JPB right. Solved the conundrum. 

Philogene-Bidace is completely untested at a high level, Smith tends to like easing young players in not just chuck them in for a baptism by fire as a PL starter. Philogene-Bidace seems to be benefitting from Villa backup player syndrome at the moment. The longer it's been since people saw them play, the better a player seems to get. 

I wouldn't have minded seeing Watkins out wide though

Edited October 22, 2021 by Davkaus

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, villa4europe said:

Disagree

We have players players who can play out position and fit a 4-3-3 

Watkins is not a left winger, neither is young, El Ghazi is not a right winger, maybe he should have tried PB but that is what it is

Buendia, traore and Bailey have all missed too many games this season to get consistent use of a strong 4-3-3 line up 

Why is it "what it is" though? This makes no sense to me and feels like an excuse. What are we waiting to see from him? 

[MWARLEY2]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

No. The European Champions play with a back 3, for example. 

Fair point . But surely the exception rather than the rule  plus i am trying to avoid the conclusion that our players just arent very good 

[maqroll]

The high press we used vs Man Utd worked a trick. Wonder why we stopped doing it?

[skarroki]

Never really questioned Smith a great deal until I saw the line up tonight. Absolutely infuriating.

Tuanzebe looks dreadful

Mings is an error waiting to happen

Hause on bench instead

Targett incapable of playing wing back 

Buendia isn't a central player

Watkins and Ings can't play up front together

 

He's worked with some of these lads for years and it felt like we were really progressing. Suddenly this 5-3-2 and he's putting players in unfamiliar roles week after week. 

5-3-2 works in certain games, stop playing it every single match and put the players on the pitch who fit the roles they're assigned to. We finally have some quality options in the squad but it means Smith has to be more brave with his selections. 

At the moment it looks like he's gone through a list of the available players on fifa and tried to find a way to put the highest rated XI onto the pitch together. It's like peak England mid 2000's 

[TomC]

50 minutes ago, maqroll said:

The high press we used vs Man Utd worked a trick. Wonder why we stopped doing it?

We used it last week. This week we didn't have enough possession in their end to implement it. You can't press when you cough up the ball after two touches in their end and half your team is still trying to get over the halfway line.

 

[TomC]

Well, let's look ahead to next week...

We played the second half 4-2-3-1 the way I thought we would at the start of the season...

Martinez

Cash - Konsa - Mings - Targett

Luiz - McGinn

Bailey - Buendia - Watkins

Ings

...and it looked pretty good. I know some may argue Ramsey for Buendia. I'd argue Young for Targett. But whoever you put in, I hope Deano sticks with it.

 

[dubliner]

Should never ever play 3 centre backs again. Just does not work with our personnel.

In saying that no matter what formation we played last night we'd have lost given the complete lack of fight a good few of our players showed. Brought memories of the Remi Garde era flooding back 

[MaVilla]

5 hours ago, TomC said:

Well, let's look ahead to next week...

We played the second half 4-2-3-1 the way I thought we would at the start of the season...

Martinez

Cash - Konsa - Mings - Targett

Luiz - McGinn

Bailey - Buendia - Watkins

Ings

...and it looked pretty good. I know some may argue Ramsey for Buendia. I'd argue Young for Targett. But whoever you put in, I hope Deano sticks with it.

 

thats the team for me too, although im not convinced by McGinn, my debate is McGinn/Sanson/Ramsey in that double pivot role alongside Luiz.

Other than that, totally agree.

[foreveryoung]

I have continued to watch Targett play like a winger in this formation for Eight games now. We can all see he cannot cross a ball for Sh** and he certainly can't play a creative winger. It looks like he is trying to do the Grealish role, which is insane. Why would any coach not see, he is ineffective in this position. Smith and co, really cannot rate half the squad if he feels we have to stick with this formation, until bailey gets fit.

In the first half yesterday the way Targett, Luiz and Cash come forward, (an they must have been told to play this way), we had no midfield half the game. It's a terrible formation, an I'm shocked they have continued to play this way, the forward play was such a mess yet again, not helped by continuing with 2 strikers.

Basics, why change so much after playing 433 for 3 years with success, don't complicate things. Even Pep gets it wrong when trying to change from the norm, play one system unless the game dictates. I have seen many a manager change formations early in the game when it's not working, but yet again we see Smith and Shakespere talking and talking but changing nothing, they both lack reactive experience, but I think Smith has the last word, and if so, shows such stubbornness which has got us into trouble on many occasions, an continues to do so.

[Paul33]

No tactics and no formation will "work" if your key playmakers repeatedly give the ball away. Luiz, McGinn and Buendia repeatedly and consistently gave the ball away throughout the first half in what was collectively and individually the worst 45 minutes of their seasons.

When you go 5-3-2/3-5-2 then you are pushing your full backs to race forward as wing-backs and create an overload and you could hear our coaches imploring them to do that but if your key ballers then give the ball away cheap then you expose those full backs horribly.

5-3-2/3-5-2 can work well but it is completely reliant on your midfielders and, to a lesser extent your forwards, holding the ball up at the very least.

The biggest and most critical failing yesterday was the abysmal performances from Luiz, McGinn and Buendia and, of those, Buendia is a particular concern as his level of performance since arriving is no better than League One and he is meant to be our key playmaker !  

[Tom13]

39 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

I have continued to watch Targett play like a winger in this formation for Eight games now. We can all see he cannot cross a ball for Sh** and he certainly can't play a creative winger. It looks like he is trying to do the Grealish role, which is insane. Why would any coach not see, he is ineffective in this position. Smith and co, really cannot rate half the squad if he feels we have to stick with this formation, until bailey gets fit.

Saying that Targett can't cross is harsh. Technically he is superb. I agree partly though, as the only man on the left he is expected to make his own crossing space, which he can't do as he doesn't have skill or pace.

When a competent winger (or ideally a wide playmaker such as Grealish) is in front of him, he's great, as he's intelligent when creating those two on one situations to get into dangerous areas.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Tom13

[VillaChris]

You could see the logic with us wanting Smith Rowe couldn't you?

Way guy was constantly cutting in from the left and getting in through our gaps was exactly what you know who used to do.

So obviously our big plan was to get him as G***lish replacement but we seemed to think he was desperate to leave Arsenal when he really wasn't.

Signing like that would've made our summer recruitment seem much more balance as he'd have been the left sided attacker in 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 and then have Buendia or Bailey as right sided option and play the other as number 10.

I'd be astounded if we don't go back to 4-3-3 next weekend. Problem is though we have overflow of options for right attacking position. People want Buendia playing there, I want Bailey playing there and Traore played there plenty of times last season. 

Whereas for left side we have out of form Ollie and playing him out of position, El Ghazi with all his pros and cons, Bailey (from what I saw at Leverkusen he's better on the right) and JPB.

Another thing DS needs to solve, who will be our long term left sided option in a 4-3-3? Like a few isssues we have currently not sure he'll come up with a coherent answer.

[Delphinho123]

2 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

Firstly I really want Dean Smith to be a success at Villa, or a further success as he already has immense credit in the bank for how the team has performed over the last 3 seasons. And with Grealish leaving this season we were always going to be back a year in the plan. 10th position in the league should be the minimum objective this season.

However, it's now beginning to feel like Smith has lost his way. It feels like we have a run of games and end up defending Smith's decision, talking about poor game management, defensive vulnerabilities or a lack of goals.

The last three games, Tottenham, Wolves & Arsenal have been pathetic. We've played no football, we don't look to have a plan, we can't retain possession and we ultimately look like a team that have never played with each other. It's far away from the performances last season where we utilised the 4-3-3 and the team had an identity. 

Last night we should never have played 5-3-2, and we should never have played the same team that bottled a 2-0 win against Wolves. It was a chance to revert back to the 4-3-3 against a vulnerable Arsenal side, play football the way we played last season, and put recent performances behind us. Instead we carried on doing what we had done in previous games resulting in one of the worst first halves of football in Smiths reign.

Smith seems intent on shoehorning players into his side, Tuanzebe at the back, Ings & Watkins together up front. It isn't working and it plainly obvious to see from the stands. The fans would rather lose 4-0 having a go, pressing, passing, moving, running at players; rather than letting games pass us by with no plan B.

For me Smith now has two games to save his job. He has to revert back to 4-3-3, use the back four that clicked last season. Play a midfield with Luiz sitting deep and two of McGin, Ramsey or Sanson in front. Bailey or El Ghazi left, Buendia or Traore right and one of Ings or Watkins leading the line. In games where we should dominate the possession we then have the option to play Ings in the 10 role with pace and technical ability on the wings to carry the ball. The 5-3-2 is an option to play against teams like United, Liverpool, Chelsea and City where we now we won't be able to dominate possession.

It's not too late to turn this around but he has to get it right soon or it's going to cost him his job.

Agree with all of this. It’s almost like we’re spoilt for choice in certain positions and he’s too scared to drop certain players. If we have to start with Ings, Tuanzebe, Watkins or Buendia on the bench then so be it.

We don’t have the presence in midfield to play with Buendia as a 10 and the 3-5-2 doesn’t work for a plethora of reasons. That leaves a 4-3-3. Its pretty much the only formation we can play with the personnel we have at our disposal. The club decided not to bring in another central midfielder in the Summer which somewhat limited our options and now we have to live with that. 

———————Martinez———————
Cash——Konsa——Mings——Targett
————————Luiz—————————
————Sanson——McGinn—————
Buendia————————————Bailey
———————Watkins————————

I know some might prefer Ings over Watkins and that’s a fair shout but Watkins was superb last season in this formation so give him a chance this season in it with Bailey and Buendia playing outside of him. Ings is a good player, I just feel Watkins pace, energy and pressing works well in this system. 

It’s about balance. As long as we play that formation, I think we’ll finish safely in midtable. Smith will lose his job if he keeps shoehorning players into the team, I said it could be a problem the moment we signed Ings.