Team shape, tactics and personnel

[M_Afro]

2 hours ago, villalad21 said:

I'd go with this team. 

 

Yep. I think most people agree with the formation. I would play Sanson in place of Ramsey, who is not ready to start in the PL yet but otherwise no change. 
Ideally we would sign a physical DCM so we could play a 4-2-1-3 as well with SJM as the 1. If we are really serious we would also sign a proper 10 to compete with SJM for that position.

Sadly, the above means dropping Ings and Axel and that won’t happen. Smith my drop Axel and revert to a flat back 4 but he will keep shoe horsing Ings in to everyone’s detriment.

[MaVilla]

i have other posts with graphs and table etc, but if we strip away all the surrounding noise for a while, i think one of my biggest concerns is style of play, or lack there of.

I dont remember the last time that i watched us and saw us have a defined style of play, a methodology, and this from a manager in Deano who was supposed to bring us the "beautiful game".

Deano has been here 3 years now, and my summary of the 20/21 season tactics were "punt it to Grealish" and let him work the magic, in the 21/22 season, it seems to be "punt it down either line and hope something happens", its really concerning that after 3 years and $350m spent, we have a team that regularly cant pass 5 yards and treats the ball like a ticking bomb.

If you look at this season passing stats, we are 18th with an avg. of 359 passes per game, with only Newcastle (339) and Burnley (333) behind us in passing table, read that again....only Newcastle and Burnely pass less than we do, and not by much. Now, i accept "passes" arent a catch all for good or beautiful football, but it does correctly reflect that we are a punt down the lines team, a back to forward asap style team, the exact style we all said we hated historically, and the exact opposite of what we all said we wanted when Deano came in, and the exact opposite of what Deano said he would bring, an "attractive, progressive, entertaining, beautiful" style of football.

As i say, i know this cant be viewed in isolation, as many other factors come in to play, but i will be honest and say that the fact we play how we do (or seem to fail to have any style of play), after how long Deano has been here, and the money invested in the playing squad, is quite disappointing to me.

[Laughable Chimp]

1 hour ago, MaVilla said:

i have other posts with graphs and table etc, but if we strip away all the surrounding noise for a while, i think one of my biggest concerns is style of play, or lack there of.

I dont remember the last time that i watched us and saw us have a defined style of play, a methodology, and this from a manager in Deano who was supposed to bring us the "beautiful game".

Deano has been here 3 years now, and my summary of the 20/21 season tactics were "punt it to Grealish" and let him work the magic, in the 21/22 season, it seems to be "punt it down either line and hope something happens", its really concerning that after 3 years and $350m spent, we have a team that regularly cant pass 5 yards and treats the ball like a ticking bomb.

If you look at this season passing stats, we are 18th with an avg. of 359 passes per game, with only Newcastle (339) and Burnley (333) behind us in passing table, read that again....only Newcastle and Burnely pass less than we do, and not by much. Now, i accept "passes" arent a catch all for good or beautiful football, but it does correctly reflect that we are a punt down the lines team, a back to forward asap style team, the exact style we all said we hated historically, and the exact opposite of what we all said we wanted when Deano came in, and the exact opposite of what Deano said he would bring, an "attractive, progressive, entertaining, beautiful" style of football.

As i say, i know this cant be viewed in isolation, as many other factors come in to play, but i will be honest and say that the fact we play how we do (or seem to fail to have any style of play), after how long Deano has been here, and the money invested in the playing squad, is quite disappointing to me.

I'd say attempted number of long passes divided by total number of attempted passes is the best statistic if you want to whether a team is a "punt-down the lines" type.

For fun, I did the calculation quickly for all teams.

Burnley-29.4% of all attempted passes are long passes.

Aston Villa-25.8%

Watford-25.1%

Newcastle-23.9%

Brentford-23.2%

Norwich-22.8%

Everton-22.7%

Wolves-21.5%

West Ham-20.6%

Leeds-20.0%

Liverpool-19.5%

Brighton-18.9%

Crystal Palace-18.6%

Southampton-17.8%

Arsenal-17.7%

Leicester-17.6%

Tottenham-17.6%

Man Utd-16.2%

Chelsea-16.1%

Man City-15.4%

 

 

Our percentage was 23.2% last season.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[Peter Griffin]

Just now, Laughable Chimp said:

I'd say attempted number of long passes divided by total number of attempted passes is the best statistic if you want to whether a team is a "punt-down the lines" type.

For fun, I did the calculation quickly for all teams.

Burnley-29.4%

Aston Villa-25.8%

Watford-25.1%

Newcastle-23.9%

Brentford-23.2%

Norwich-22.8%

Everton-22.7%

Wolves-21.5%

West Ham-20.6%

Leeds-20.0%

Liverpool-19.5%

Brighton-18.9%

Crystal Palace-18.6%

Southampton-17.8%

Arsenal-17.7%

Leicester-17.6%

Tottenham-17.6%

Man Utd-16.2%

Chelsea-16.1%

Man City-15.4%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just looking at the list it appears to be the way I would expect it. Is that data for this season?

I am a bit surprised with Villa up in 2nd. Interesting to see where Palace are. I am liking them each time I see them and think Vieira is doing a great job, they are the one team in the PL that is genuinely going through a transition period and a rebuild period and they are playing nice football. Vieira is doing his chances of replacing Arteta no harm whatsoever

[Laughable Chimp]

Just now, Peter Griffin said:

Just looking at the list it appears to be the way I would expect it. Is that data for this season?

I am a bit surprised with Villa up in 2nd. Interesting to see where Palace are. I am liking them each time I see them and think Vieira is doing a great job, they are the one team in the PL that is genuinely going through a transition period and a rebuild period and they are playing nice football. Vieira is doing his chances of replacing Arteta no harm whatsoever

Yeah its from this season and its from fbref as where I usually take my data from.

[MaVilla]

26 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I'd say attempted number of long passes divided by total number of attempted passes is the best statistic if you want to whether a team is a "punt-down the lines" type.

For fun, I did the calculation quickly for all teams.

Burnley-29.4% of all attempted passes are long passes.

Aston Villa-25.8%

Watford-25.1%

Newcastle-23.9%

Brentford-23.2%

Norwich-22.8%

Everton-22.7%

Wolves-21.5%

West Ham-20.6%

Leeds-20.0%

Liverpool-19.5%

Brighton-18.9%

Crystal Palace-18.6%

Southampton-17.8%

Arsenal-17.7%

Leicester-17.6%

Tottenham-17.6%

Man Utd-16.2%

Chelsea-16.1%

Man City-15.4%

 

 

Our percentage was 23.2% last season.

 

 

 

 

 

very interesting, thanks for taking the time to provide the data.

[TRO]

14 hours ago, nick76 said:

But you notice each time we are in a better place higher position and expectation is higher when it happens.  We take two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back etc…you know what? I can handle that!

but there are still tell tale signs of our weaknesses of play....even when we win.....but its is not an appropriate time to talk about them, because we all want to enjoy wins.

We sometimes score a couple of goals a win, but analytical truth, some of our weaknesses are still there, but the goals and win mask over it.....some of those weaknesses ,have been with us for some time, i.e giving the ball away cheaply and not being able to stay on the ball even with innocuos challenges from opponents....we are easy to play against and have been for some time.....even with changes of personnel, which leads me to think its an inherent mentality...ingrained.

Its natural, when we win, those weaknesses get overlooked and dismissed, hence the over zealous foretelling......The secret is in the play...the last few games it has reared its ugly head once again.....The shambolic positioning, passing, ball retention and melancholy approach to running off the ball.....if our play on the ball against Arsenal was putrid, off the ball was worse.....we make teams look better than they are, 

John Mcginn as one player, his form was mindblowing, after playing so well in previous games, the contrast would test stephen Hawking........His actions in the box at set pieces is hard to explain, if fact he just gets in the way and inhibits other players from their more deliberate attempts.

This season so far, its been anything but 2 steps forward one step back,its been  forward, back,forward,forward, back, back, back.....extrapolate that out over a season and its a relegation, scrap.

Edited October 24, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

14 hours ago, PaulC said:

So do I but you have to play to your strengths. Brian Little favoured that formation and it worked for him but we had two strikers that complimented each other  and we were a team. I agree theres so much wrong at the moment and that has to point at the manager and the coching. We're ok when teams give us time on the ball  but if a team plays with any intensity, we cant keep the ball. Teams have us figured out and so we need to change something.

Precisely.....and for for me, its a stark, and stands out like a sore thumb.

The question is.....what are we doing about it?

what they have figured out is, we can't keep the ball under control and when we do, at times, we immediatley give it back to them......that is a serious, weakness.

Edited October 24, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Also of note, we got dominated and battered by a big, strong midfielder, who can also play the type that is " outdated ".

So again IMO, whilst you might not need them for EVERY game, they are definitely useful to have.

JV....I just ignore those comments as drivel.

I am not blinded by " Big " players....but in midfield you need pace and power, to go with the quick feet, vision and deft touches and accurate passing......However, those big guys do make a difference at set pieces, where John McGinn eloquently displayed, that it takes a certain type to get on the end of the ball.

Its a squad and we should have adequate diversity of player, to deal with ALL eventualities.

[lexicon]

4-3-3 for me

Bailey------Ings/Watkins----Traore/Buendia

---------Ramsey-------Sanson

---------------------Luiz-----------------

Targett - Mings - Konsa - Cash

---------------Martinez---------------------

[TRO]

Just now, PaulC said:

I go back to Brian Little after watching his interview. The first thing he sorted out when he was manager was the defence. I thought he had that sorted last season with the back 4 but he hasnt sorted the midfield out. 

I agree, for me its midfield and if you don't sort it out, eventually it will creep in to other departments and I think it has.

I think its more to do with the defensive side of our game as opposed to just the defenders, if that makes sense.

we can't defend as a team, with any sort of regularity, we have odd occassions sure, but when you watch the majority of our games, we are too easy to play against......the signs are in the general play.

 

 

[TomC]

5 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I'd say attempted number of long passes divided by total number of attempted passes is the best statistic if you want to whether a team is a "punt-down the lines" type.

For fun, I did the calculation quickly for all teams.

Burnley-29.4% of all attempted passes are long passes.

Aston Villa-25.8%

Watford-25.1%

Newcastle-23.9%

Brentford-23.2%

Norwich-22.8%

Everton-22.7%

Wolves-21.5%

West Ham-20.6%

Leeds-20.0%

Liverpool-19.5%

Brighton-18.9%

Crystal Palace-18.6%

Southampton-17.8%

Arsenal-17.7%

Leicester-17.6%

Tottenham-17.6%

Man Utd-16.2%

Chelsea-16.1%

Man City-15.4%

 

 

Our percentage was 23.2% last season.

 

Notice that the best sides have the lowest percentages!

I'm not surprised that we're at the high end this year. Without Grealish, getting the ball forward has been the problem. However, I thought that we'd have a much lower percentage with Grealish running the show last year and it's only slightly lower.

This could mean a few things...

1. We have trouble breaking the press and play the long ball to get out of it. (Probably the biggest part of the problem.)

2. We lack creativity in midfield. (Could be part of the problem this year but doesn't explain last year.)

3. Deano likes to get the ball up the pitch quickly rather than building patiently.

 

[tomav84]

18 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

What is he going to do with Bailey fit?

Play Ings and Watkins and a 2 man midfield? I think this will create a different set of problems.

Don't think we're good enough to get away with a 2 man midfield.

i think we'll find out sunday. i'll be amazed if we're not back to 4-3-3 with watkins on the left.

[LxYoungAVFC]

By playing the same formation each game, we give Managers a ready made template on how to beat us.  

We also fail to adapt quick enough mid-game when it's clear that we're being countered.

It's just naive.

[villalad21]

Also the season was without fans so it's a bit of an outlier.

Fans back in the stadiums changes everything.

I think our players in particular thrives without fans. It becomes a less of a pressured environment.

Just look how they performed post lockdown and pre lockdown.

Not taking away anything from what they achieved last season. Just saying it was not a normal season.

[villa4europe]

1 minute ago, villalad21 said:

Also the season was without fans so it's a bit of an outlier.

Fans back in the stadiums changes everything.

I think our players in particular thrives without fans. It becomes a less of a pressured environment.

Just look how they performed post lockdown and pre lockdown.

Not taking away anything from what they achieved last season. Just saying it was not a normal season.

A quick read through this forum in the last few days will explain why... 

[bobzy]

8 minutes ago, Spoony said:

Did you watch the games? People are worried about the total capitulation, lack of plan, lack of cohesion, players all losing their heads and generally playing like relegation candidates. It isn’t an overreaction, there are big problems that a lucky win over Man Utd doesn’t cover up. If we can only play well with Bailey, who is made out of Lego, that’s a problem. Continuously playing a formation that gets the worst out of Ings and Watkins is a problem. Having a captain who just loses his head and can’t lead is a problem. Players throwing water bottles, coaches leaving, etc is a problem. All is definitely not well. 

Are you having a laugh?   We were great against Man Utd.

[TRO]

Listening to Sky in their analytics of Man U......I saw some similarities to our team too.

Sure, they have better individuals than us, but in terms of the team, and its way of playing and their weaknesses, I see similar traits with us.

[DCJonah]

42 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

What have you against dealing with what is happening on the pitch? I am happy we got 55 points but I am not happy it was split between an excellent half and a terrible half. I am even less happy it looks like we were dependant on one player who is no longer at the club. Do you not recognise this as a problem for Villa? Try not think that we all have an agenda, maybe try thinking that some of us actually want what is best for Aston Villa whether that is with or without Dean Smith. I would love Dean to stay as manager for the next 10 years but if he is not good enough I do not want to keep Dean Smith just because he is a nice guy, a Villa fan and has done well with us in the last few years. AVFC will always come first for me. It comes before NSWE, Purslow, Smith and every single member of staff

What have I got against dealing with on the pitch? Nothing. The wolves collapse was awful, the arsenal game abysmal and I think Smith has to change formation and adapt the way he's using Watkins and Ings. 

You're happy we got 55 pts but not happy how we got it. This is what I'm on about. You want 55 pts but you want it done in a certain way, like no other midtable teams have ups and downs through the season. 

You also seem to completely ignore how covid impacted last season. But of course you would. 

We were dependent on one player. Do you think Klopp should have been sacked last season? Do you not think every single club outside the top 6 would have been dependent on Jack Grealish? He's one of the best players in the league.

You don't want to be dependent on one player but you also have no patience in trying to play in a way that isnt dependent on Jack Grealish. Buendia is not up to speed with prem football, Ings has contributed but we are still finding the best way to use him and probably our most important player this season, Bailey, hasn't been able to start a single game. 

No one wants to keep Dean Smith just because he's a nice guy or a Villa fan. I mean it's comments like that and your ignorance of other teams that lead me to believe its an agenda. 

It's only the same few who keep discussing Dean Smith away from the club, whereas the rest can acknowledge things aren't great in these last few games but don't need to go overboard with the panic.

Edited October 25, 2021 by DCJonah

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

What is he going to do with Bailey fit?

Play Ings and Watkins and a 2 man midfield? I think this will create a different set of problems.

Don't think we're good enough to get away with a 2 man midfield.

The fact that you don’t know what to do doesn’t concern me greatly.