Team shape, tactics and personnel

[markavfc40]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

Tell me what team you would want to see, from this squad and how you would set up, to approach games?

I want to see a consistent approach. I want to see a formation and style of play that we will play 90% of the time. 

I haven't worked with the players for a year. Haven't had a full pre season with them. Haven't had two transfer windows and been able to oversee 20+ ins/outs. If I had, and if I was deemed good enough to be manager of a Premier League club, I'd like to think after all that I'd have instilled a style of play. In fact I'd like to think that from the second I'd walked on the training pitch on my first day in charge I'd have been instilling one. 

Instead from one game to the next we see a different formation, a different intensity, a different front 3 or 4. I could perhaps slightly understand if it was because we are adapting to the opposition (although I'd like to think in the vast majority of the games we'd have a manager confident enough to say the opposition can adapt to us). The reason after a year we see chopping and changing every single game though is I, and I think many others believe, because we have a manager who is out of his depth, who has simply not instilled a style of play and is winging it hoping to stumble on something that works that he can then use in the next game. 

I'd hate to be one of our forward players. Playing one game dropped for the next 2. Or playing in one position one game, a different position the next, then dropped. How are they supposed to get any rhythm and build relationships with each other. It must also kill your confidence which is something forward players thrive on having.

[TRO]

41 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I want to see a consistent approach. I want to see a formation and style of play that we will play 90% of the time. 

I haven't worked with the players for a year. Haven't had a full pre season with them. Haven't had two transfer windows and been able to oversee 20+ ins/outs. If I had, and if I was deemed good enough to be manager of a Premier League club, I'd like to think after all that I'd have instilled a style of play. In fact I'd like to think that from the second I'd walked on the training pitch on my first day in charge I'd have been instilling one. 

Instead from one game to the next we see a different formation, a different intensity, a different front 3 or 4. I could perhaps slightly understand if it was because we are adapting to the opposition (although I'd like to think in the vast majority of the games we'd have a manager confident enough to say the opposition can adapt to us). The reason after a year we see chopping and changing every single game though is I, and I think many others believe, because we have a manager who is out of his depth, who has simply not instilled a style of play and is winging it hoping to stumble on something that works that he can then use in the next game. 

I'd hate to be one of our forward players. Playing one game dropped for the next 2. Or playing in one position one game, a different position the next, then dropped. How are they supposed to get any rhythm and build relationships with each other. It must also kill your confidence which is something forward players thrive on having.

Mark, I am not being patronising, but on the whole, I love your posts, and I am convinced, you know what your talking about.

However, that rendition, does not fill me with a person, who knows how to criticise, Knows how to show disdain, for the offerings we have on the field....but offers nothing to say, what he should do.... its just nebulous.

In the games against Arsenal, Chelsea and Man city, they have given us more space to play, they fancy their chances, so are not afraid of us......the other teams with a low block, have forced us to play different and to all who study us, we have been pee poor.

I think there are pockets of sunshine in the games against the better sides, sure the points are still missing, but we have shown evidence, we can play, when allowed the much needed space.....close us down, press us and we disappear, in this clueless, bunch of sould looking for inspiration....boys Jacks gone!!!

I am not attempting to defend, 8 wins all year.....albeit some seem to think I am......I am also, not giving SG a get out of jail card......and I am not saying you are wrong either......but I will be damned, If I blame some of the things, I see on the pitch, directly on the manager.

aside from brain farts, and composure, add a bit of good premier league decision making and we would have won that on Sunday. ..suddenly 12 points paints a different picture, we are in mid table.

I know, we can't cling to ifs, buts and maybe's.....but if we fail to fight our way through choppy waters, no resillience will ever be gained..... we will be this, run for hills team, at every sign of adversity...and owners who are expected to bail us out, at the sign of trouble.

I saw a style of play of Sunday, we just didn't make it pay, but it was there.......I saw a style of play against Man City and we nearly made it pay.......I hear calls that certain managers, change what they do all the time..and are teasingly called chameleons, we would say disparagingly/cynically, he doesn't know his best team.....these managers are deemed tactical wizards, because they get a win....changing a team, from a bench filled with stars of varying skill sets, that can effect a difference.

SG Changes "he is wrong", he sticks with a team, "he runs with favoured players", He introduces player and they are no better than what he has just taken off.

I am not telling folk, what is right and what is wrong, I am just saying, its not as clear cut as we all seem to think or claim.

I have been watching this team for some time , probably too long.....I have no idea, what his best team is.

I was in the ground on Sunday, and a well known fan said "He does't know what his best team is", during an exchange of views.....I said "do you"...he stalled, I reassured him I was not being facetious....I asked others, "do you know what the best team is".....and they all went quiet.

my point is, such is the level of inconsistency, and the similarity in attributes, its no wonder, we are all unsure.....I think, most fans, would have a different, team selection and that is not a slight on them.....This squad lacks balance, and Kamara's loss has hit us hard, as has Carlos too.....we have no centre forward, just 2 inside forwards trying to carry the fight.....We have no CDM, now Kamara is out.....and I have no idea if Dendoncker is anything but cover.

I don't much care, if he goes anymore.....I just hope the next guy, gets more support, than this.

UTV

 

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by TRO

[markavfc40]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

However, that rendition, does not fill me with a person, who knows how to criticise, Knows how to show disdain, for the offerings we have on the field....but offers nothing to say, what he should do.... its just nebulous.

I got to be honest Paul I find this quite insulting. Why should I have to say what a Premier League manager who has been in charge of a team for a year should do? Shouldn't the person who is charge of the team know?  It doesn't matter what I think he should do does it. If I say play 4-3-3 with one 8, one 6 and one number 10, two wide players and one through the middle. Does that suddenly make my opinion more valid and not nebulous?

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I have been watching this team for some time , probably too long.....I have no idea, what his best team is.

You should know as you should have a manager in charge of the team who has shown you. You don't need to know though. That isn't your job to. Just as the other 40k who rock up to VP every other week don't need to or the millions of other Villa fans. All we need to know as fans is that the manager after a year pretty much knows his best 11 and 100% should know how he wants them to play. I'd expect him to have been working towards a system/style of play from the second he started the job and after a year, 39 games, two transfer windows a turnover of 20+ players, big increase in wage bill, full pre season that he would have implemented one. The fact he isn't even close and is flitting from formation to formation and making 2,3,4 changes every game shows he hasn't got a clue

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by markavfc40

[blandy]

19 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Why should I have to say what a Premier League manager who has been in charge of a team for a year should do? Shouldn't the person who is charge of the team know?  It doesn't matter what I think he should do does it. If I say play 4-3-3....

Exactly. I was watching a film, and struggled to follow the plot, there wasn't a clear narrative, the sound was kind of dull, the dialogue stilted and the acting seemed wooden.

I don't know how to direct a Hollywood movie, not should I have to explain how I'd direct one in order to have my view validated.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

Exactly. I was watching a film, and struggled to follow the plot, there wasn't a clear narrative, the sound was kind of dull, the dialogue stilted and the acting seemed wooden.

I don't know how to direct a Hollywood movie, not should I have to explain how I'd direct one in order to have my view validated.

Come on Pete.....thats scrapping the barrel.

We are talking about a passion ,we have been presiding over for too many years to mention....We think about, the formations, movement and the changes, what players fit where and so on.

I guess a stalwart of the Film Industry would know what to look for....We watch films we don't study them.....If a hill was false, I wouldn't know, but a more discerning film fan might.

We on here, are discerning football fans, who consume the rudiments of the game.....not just rock up to kill a few hours while visiting Brum.

Thats a poor analogy for me.

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Genuinely think even Coutinho could thrive in a different system.

The quality is there.

[nnock1984]

                   Martinez 

Cash  Bednerek  Mings Digne 

               Sanson  Luiz

Bailey         Buendia    Countinho 

                       Ings 

 

With Carlos and Kamara to come back into the team. Bertie back from loan, and hopefully a new striker in January.  

[TomC]

For the first time in a year, it's worth speculating about a formation other than a 4-3-3 variant...

I don't see us playing 4-2-3-1 anytime in the next few matches, however, with Doug out. A 2 of McGinn and Dendoncker doesn't leave me a lot of confidence, and who knows is Sanson or Naka could last a whole match after being frozen out for so long.

 

[Dante_Lockhart]

Full backs for width since we don't really have wingers here anymore. DM to drop into a back 3 for cover. Defensive duties only.

-------------------------Emi-------------------------

Cash-----Chambers---Mings-----Digne

-----Sanson--Dendoncker------JJ--------

-----------Buendia----Coutinho--------------

----------------------Archer------------------------

Nakamba option for Donk. Ings for Archer. Bailey/Watkins if we want to change it up and widen the pitch. Luiz in for Sanson when back.

 

[M_Afro]

Whatever formation we play moving forward, if the new manager does not pick Fred, Morgan, Chambers et al, can we all just accept that 3 consecutive managers not picking them is evidence enough that they are actually not very good! 

It will also be intriguing to see what happens to Emi 2. I know that he is the fans favourite but I am far from convinced by him. Can a new manager find a way to get him in the team and performing well on a regular basis. I only see him working as a right sided attacker in a 4-3-3 but that would require the other two forwards to have real pace. 

[juanpabloangel18]

While there is clearly lots of talent within our squad below, it feels a bit like late MON to me and I think we may have a medium-term problem on our hands sorting it out. In particular too many centre-midfielders and not enough quality FBs, wingers, and possibly strikers. New manager is going to struggle to keep everyone happy.

GK

• Martinez
• Olsen
• Steer

FB

• Cash
• Young
• Digne
• Guilbert
• Augustinsson (loan)

CB

• Mings
• Konsa
• Carlos
• Chambers
• Feeney
• Bednarek (loan in)
• Hause (loan out)

MF

• Dougie
• McGinn
• Sanson
• Nakamba
• Kamara
• Ramsey
• Coutinho
• Bogarde
• Dendoncker
• Iroegbunam (loan out)

FW

• Watkins
• Ings
• Bailey
• Buendia
• Archer
• Davis (loan out)
• Traore (loan out)
• Wesley (loan out)
• JPB (loan out)

 

[sne]

18 hours ago, M_Afro said:

Whatever formation we play moving forward, if the new manager does not pick Fred, Morgan, Chambers et al, can we all just accept that 3 consecutive managers not picking them is evidence enough that they are actually not very good! 

It will also be intriguing to see what happens to Emi 2. I know that he is the fans favourite but I am far from convinced by him. Can a new manager find a way to get him in the team and performing well on a regular basis. I only see him working as a right sided attacker in a 4-3-3 but that would require the other two forwards to have real pace. 

Some of those players will need time. They will be rustier than a tin man in a monsoon and with their confidence levels absolutely shattered. They also really need to be sold on this new project and manager because I expect they feel they have been treated poorly by the club.

Imagine most of them will move in Jan or the Summer regardless who the new manager is.

Edited October 22, 2022 by sne

[rodders0223]

McGinn needs to come out. Playing awful.

Ramsay needs to come out or play wide. Does nothing out of possession and doesn't understand the game enough to keep the ball ticking over.

Traore needs to return.

Sarr needs to be signed or A N other.

Double pivot needs to be implemented with demands placed on midfield to RETAIN THE **** BALL.

Hoofing the ball into the box from every free kick needs to end and the long haired tramp sacked.

Chambers Sanson and all should be given a run out. Good technical footballers and part of a revolutionary culture of playing players who earn their place and need to be at every week.

 

[May-Z]

1 hour ago, rodders0223 said:

McGinn needs to come out. Playing awful.

Ramsay needs to come out or play wide. Does nothing out of possession and doesn't understand the game enough to keep the ball ticking over.

Traore needs to return.

Sarr needs to be signed or A N other.

Double pivot needs to be implemented with demands placed on midfield to RETAIN THE **** BALL.

Hoofing the ball into the box from every free kick needs to end and the long haired tramp sacked.

Chambers Sanson and all should be given a run out. Good technical footballers and part of a revolutionary culture of playing players who earn their place and need to be at every week.

 

Retaining the ball is so important. Our players just haven't been in the position to do it well in the system Gerrard used.  

Dougie/Kamara get the ball, other support is miles away out on each flank, or crowded out in the middle. 

What I will say though, a long ball is a decent option sometimes, but if you haven't got wingers, it shouldn't be used. Why we tried to go long so often with two narrow 10s is perplexing. Although, probably because of my first point about lack of options.

[CVByrne]

A new coach needs to assess the squad and be pragmatic, the last two managers careers ended because they tried to change the system too much and it failed. Deano tried to move to 4 4 2 on opening day, then 3 5 2 with Targett struggling badly in the system and Axel being a shadow of the player we thought he was in a back 3. Watkins and Ings hadn't had time to develop a partnership up top. Gerrard went with his super defensive set up of narrow 10s and attacking full backs with the midfield 3 primarily as a defensive cover. Tried to move us to become a passing side building from the back when we had no players comfortable on the ball other than Luiz. 

So what should a new head coach do with what he's got. The positives to work with are the full backs have had lots of time playing in attacking roles. Watkins and Ings can play well together. We've got three very talented CL level players in Coutinho, Kamara and Carlos. We also know exactly where Gerrards system struggled. 

The primary issue was with the midfield 3 being a defensive trio primarily and the full backs slow to join the attack. Our attack was ponderous as we tried to build up play slowly, and we had only 3 attacking players really on the pitch our front 3. With Watkins we lacked any goal scoring support and Coutinho or Buendia would often run towards the ball to pick it up and turn to thread a pass through to the forwards. 

This means we need to play a 4 3 3 or 4 2 3 1 set up. With Coutinho or Buendia as the 10 or one of the wide players. They should continue to drop deep from their starting position, this will draw players with them and the movement creates space. This space can only be exploited by midfielders running on into the space. JJ needs to be free'd up to do this. The reason Coutinho and Buendia failed in Gerrards system was because they like to create, they like to drop in to pick up the ball and when they were one of the 3 attacking players and the 8s were focussed on covering a full backs getting forward, there was just one or two players left in the attack, which made it easy to defend. Coutinho and Buendia are both excellent players, who need to be given the role of almost the old false 9 concept. Then need to start in a forward position and drop deep to pick up the ball, turn and play the through ball pass to players running beyond them. Ings and Buendia have a great understanding and have executed this often. 

Next is we have attacking full backs who need to operate in a "steering wheel" system, if one is attacking down one side, the other needs to tuck into midfield to keep a defensive 3 there. In a 4 3 3 one 8 and one full back are getting forward and a 6, an 8 and a full back are in the middle three. If both 8s are getting forward the full backs need to stay either side of the 6 etc. For me I would operate Coutinho/Buendia on left of front 3, Watkins and Bailey. Coutinho would often drop deep in the left half space to take a pass from midfield. While Digne would push up on left to provide width and JJ would run beyond Coutinho into the left side attacking half space, so now we've got 4 players beyond Coutinho Digne, JJ, Watkins, Bailey and lots of movement to create space. If we have the other two midfielders as Kamara and Luiz we've now the right balance. 

We need the starting point for the wide forwards to be hugging the touchline to really stretch the pitch, we need to play quick in transition when we turn over the ball. Bailey and Watkins should be regular starters. Goals will be contributed from midfield 8s getting forward. So the burden isn't on Watkins. With movement of the front three creating the space for midfield to get into. JJ, Luiz and McGinn are all good at finishing chances I believe in the right system. Finally with Mings / Carlos as a CB partnership we will have talented CBs (especially Carlos) with cross field passes to the channels for quick counter attacks. Watkins naturally drifts to the right and Bailey on left means an outlet with JJ and Coutinho making the runs centrally to finish any chances. 

To make this even more effective is for a talented coach to build pressing traps and to coach the team on turning over the ball and speed in attack once turned over. So my Villa team when everyone is fit is as follows

Coutinho/Buendia Watkins Bailey

Ramsey Kamara Luiz

Digne Mings Carlos Cash

Martinez

The Coutinho/Buendia side is the free role creative 10 who is to come deep to create the space for players to run beyond. Watkins and Bailey are there for pace in transition and to stretch the pitch. Low blocks are taken on by width and wide players coming in and taking on defenders to beat them and pass to players running into the box, this can be done by a subtle switch to more of a 4 2 3 1 with JJ as the 10 or out left so he can carry the ball towards players.

 

[Tom13]

The AM/winger positions for us really give me a headache.

Say we recall Traore - we have Traore and Bailey who both prefer playing on the right, Buendia who before joining us had only played on the right.

We then also have Coutinho, and Ramsey who at least for now looks like he'd be more effective in a more advanced role.

Do we play two CMs and then three attacking players behind a striker? Or three CMs with a number 8 (Sanson/Ramsey deeper) and then a CF and two wingers/wide playmakers?

I also think Traore could potentially be very good played as a number 10, maybe even as a CF.

I think I'd like to see two setups:

One

Luiz - Kamara

Traore - Buendia - Ramsey

Ings

(Traore and Bailey would battle it out for the RW spot, Traore would also be an option at CF to then play Bailey RW)

Two

Luiz - Kamara - Sanson

Traore - Ings - Buendia

(Bailey battling it out with Traore again, Buendia cutting inside, but with Traore also wanting to cut inside, could we be a bit unbalanced).

Edited October 22, 2022 by Tom13

[TomC]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

A new coach needs to assess the squad and be pragmatic, the last two managers careers ended because they tried to change the system too much and it failed. Deano tried to move to 4 4 2 on opening day, then 3 5 2 with Targett struggling badly in the system and Axel being a shadow of the player we thought he was in a back 3. Watkins and Ings hadn't had time to develop a partnership up top. Gerrard went with his super defensive set up of narrow 10s and attacking full backs with the midfield 3 primarily as a defensive cover. Tried to move us to become a passing side building from the back when we had no players comfortable on the ball other than Luiz. 

So what should a new head coach do with what he's got. The positives to work with are the full backs have had lots of time playing in attacking roles. Watkins and Ings can play well together. We've got three very talented CL level players in Coutinho, Kamara and Carlos. We also know exactly where Gerrards system struggled. 

The primary issue was with the midfield 3 being a defensive trio primarily and the full backs slow to join the attack. Our attack was ponderous as we tried to build up play slowly, and we had only 3 attacking players really on the pitch our front 3. With Watkins we lacked any goal scoring support and Coutinho or Buendia would often run towards the ball to pick it up and turn to thread a pass through to the forwards. 

This means we need to play a 4 3 3 or 4 2 3 1 set up. With Coutinho or Buendia as the 10 or one of the wide players. They should continue to drop deep from their starting position, this will draw players with them and the movement creates space. This space can only be exploited by midfielders running on into the space. JJ needs to be free'd up to do this. The reason Coutinho and Buendia failed in Gerrards system was because they like to create, they like to drop in to pick up the ball and when they were one of the 3 attacking players and the 8s were focussed on covering a full backs getting forward, there was just one or two players left in the attack, which made it easy to defend. Coutinho and Buendia are both excellent players, who need to be given the role of almost the old false 9 concept. Then need to start in a forward position and drop deep to pick up the ball, turn and play the through ball pass to players running beyond them. Ings and Buendia have a great understanding and have executed this often. 

Next is we have attacking full backs who need to operate in a "steering wheel" system, if one is attacking down one side, the other needs to tuck into midfield to keep a defensive 3 there. In a 4 3 3 one 8 and one full back are getting forward and a 6, an 8 and a full back are in the middle three. If both 8s are getting forward the full backs need to stay either side of the 6 etc. For me I would operate Coutinho/Buendia on left of front 3, Watkins and Bailey. Coutinho would often drop deep in the left half space to take a pass from midfield. While Digne would push up on left to provide width and JJ would run beyond Coutinho into the left side attacking half space, so now we've got 4 players beyond Coutinho Digne, JJ, Watkins, Bailey and lots of movement to create space. If we have the other two midfielders as Kamara and Luiz we've now the right balance. 

We need the starting point for the wide forwards to be hugging the touchline to really stretch the pitch, we need to play quick in transition when we turn over the ball. Bailey and Watkins should be regular starters. Goals will be contributed from midfield 8s getting forward. So the burden isn't on Watkins. With movement of the front three creating the space for midfield to get into. JJ, Luiz and McGinn are all good at finishing chances I believe in the right system. Finally with Mings / Carlos as a CB partnership we will have talented CBs (especially Carlos) with cross field passes to the channels for quick counter attacks. Watkins naturally drifts to the right and Bailey on left means an outlet with JJ and Coutinho making the runs centrally to finish any chances. 

To make this even more effective is for a talented coach to build pressing traps and to coach the team on turning over the ball and speed in attack once turned over. So my Villa team when everyone is fit is as follows

Coutinho/Buendia Watkins Bailey

Ramsey Kamara Luiz

Digne Mings Carlos Cash

Martinez

The Coutinho/Buendia side is the free role creative 10 who is to come deep to create the space for players to run beyond. Watkins and Bailey are there for pace in transition and to stretch the pitch. Low blocks are taken on by width and wide players coming in and taking on defenders to beat them and pass to players running into the box, this can be done by a subtle switch to more of a 4 2 3 1 with JJ as the 10 or out left so he can carry the ball towards players.

 

Thought-provoking, even if I don't agree with 100% of it.

 

[TomC]

I've said for a long time that the Bailey/Ings/Buendia combination was bought for a 4-2-3-1. I still think that makes the most sense for the current team. SG's four big purchases don't change this; Digne and Diego Carlos (when fit) slot into the back 4, Kamara (when fit) would be perfect in the 2 with Dougie, and Coutinho can play in the 3. The 3 and the 1 will have to be some combination of Coutinho, Ramsey, Buendia, Bailey, Watkins, and Ings, and it will probably take some experimentation to sort it out, as well as adjustments based on injuries and opposition.

That said, I do find it a bit funny that so many people around here are now calling for 4-2-3-1. When Deano last used a 4-2-3-1, a lot of people around here criticized it because we often got overrun in midfield. Just keep in mind...the 3 are as much midfielders as forwards, and they have to track back to help out. Every formation leaves a hole somewhere, and if the 3 all get caught too far forward, we will get overrun in midfield again.

(As CVByrne points out above, the fullbacks can also move forward to support the 2 temporarily, but eventually, they must retreat to the back line and the 3 must track back.)

 

[Indigo]

37 minutes ago, TomC said:

I've said for a long time that the Bailey/Ings/Buendia combination was bought for a 4-2-3-1. I still think that makes the most sense for the current team. SG's four big purchases don't change this; Digne and Diego Carlos (when fit) slot into the back 4, Kamara (when fit) would be perfect in the 2 with Dougie, and Coutinho can play in the 3. The 3 and the 1 will have to be some combination of Coutinho, Ramsey, Buendia, Bailey, Watkins, and Ings, and it will probably take some experimentation to sort it out, as well as adjustments based on injuries and opposition.

That said, I do find it a bit funny that so many people around here are now calling for 4-2-3-1. When Deano last used a 4-2-3-1, a lot of people around here criticized it because we often got overrun in midfield. Just keep in mind...the 3 are as much midfielders as forwards, and they have to track back to help out. Every formation leaves a hole somewhere, and if the 3 all get caught too far forward, we will get overrun in midfield again.

(As CVByrne points out above, the fullbacks can also move forward to support the 2 temporarily, but eventually, they must retreat to the back line and the 3 must track back.)

 

I agree overall, though in fairness I do think a lot of the push back on the formation at the time was that you had Luiz and McGinn as the 2, which mainly due to it not suiting the latter wasn't ideal at all. With Kamara in there now (when fit) it seems a no brainer to play it though. That or a 3-4-2-1 seem to suit the squad best as it stands.

 

Martinez

Chambers-Carlos-Mings

Cash-Luiz-Kamara-Digne

Buendia-Ramsey

Watkins

 

...or whatever combination of players you'd like in certain positions.

[TomC]

4 minutes ago, Indigo said:

I agree overall, though in fairness I do think a lot of the push back on the formation at the time was that you had Luiz and McGinn as the 2, which mainly due to it not suiting the latter wasn't ideal at all. With Kamara in there now (when fit) it seems a no brainer to play it though.

Fair enough...McGinn was playing better back then, but I agree that he's not really suited to the formation (at least not in the 2, maybe in the 3).