Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Dante_Lockhart]

Digne and Cash for width. Kamara to drop back to make a back 3 if needed when full backs go forward. Luiz and Ramsey box to box. Coutinho and Buendia pulling the strings, Watkins creating the space with his runs.

[duke313]

9 minutes ago, burchy said:

I did some mooching on Transfermarkt with regards to the formations he tended to use when he was at Rangers. Low and behold it was pretty much always a 433 or 4231. Quite where he’s getting this 4321 with the two 10s or the 4312 diamond from is a bit strange.

If he went with what he did at Rangers we’d be in a far better shape, literally. 

Our 4321 is a 433

[OutByEaster?]

17 minutes ago, burchy said:

I did some mooching on Transfermarkt with regards to the formations he tended to use when he was at Rangers. Low and behold it was pretty much always a 433 or 4231. Quite where he’s getting this 4321 with the two 10s or the 4312 diamond from is a bit strange.

For me, the problem with both of those formations is that we've got players that don't fit it.

Coutinho is not a left sided player.

So a 4-3-3 with our natural personnel has a front three of Bailey - Ings - El Ghazi. You could maybe force Watkins into that third spot over El Ghazi. In a 4-3-3 you need at least two that can hold, it's a sit-and-hit formation - so again, our natural is Kamara - Luiz and maybe Iroegbunam/Nakamba - McGinn is a maybe if Luiz sits deep.

So 4-3-3 using the most naturally suited personnel doesn't feature Coutinho, Buendia or Ramsey and isn't entirely natural for McGinn.

4-2-3-1 is the same - Coutinho is rubbish on the left, so you're looking at a three behind the striker of Bailey - Coutinho - El Ghazi. The two have to be Kamara and Luiz - so again it's a formation where we need to drop McGinn and Ramsey and play El Ghazi. 

We don't have a left winger in the squad that isn't Anwar.

We're got the players for a 4-3-2-1 that features Buendia and Coutinho and has Kamara, Luiz and either another six or McGinn - but he's stopped playing that to put Bailey in because of his form.

Our major weakness at the moment is Gerrard's Holy Trinity of McGinn, Ramsey and Coutinho - it's pretty much impossible to find a way to play them all at once, but he insists on persisting with it, and on top of that, the fly in the ointment is Bailey's form - which is unbalancing us because we're trying to fly with one wing.

 

[a m ole]

We shouldn’t play terrible just because we haven’t got the perfect balance though, we’ll need to make subs, we’ll need to accommodate injuries. It should be fluid enough that it doesn’t really matter if we have Coutinho coming in off the left or Bailey plays further forward to accommodate a 10…

other teams do it all the time l and it doesn’t bother them too much. If we’re that rigid we can’t put good players in forward positions and get some joy then something is seriously wrong.

we’re **** if we can’t deal with any adversity or rotation.

bigger problem for me is our approach than anything positional 

Edited August 8, 2022 by a m ole

[romavillan]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

For me, the problem with both of those formations is that we've got players that don't fit it.

Coutinho is not a left sided player.

So a 4-3-3 with our natural personnel has a front three of Bailey - Ings - El Ghazi. You could maybe force Watkins into that third spot over El Ghazi. In a 4-3-3 you need at least two that can hold, it's a sit-and-hit formation - so again, our natural is Kamara - Luiz and maybe Iroegbunam/Nakamba - McGinn is a maybe if Luiz sits deep.

So 4-3-3 using the most naturally suited personnel doesn't feature Coutinho, Buendia or Ramsey and isn't entirely natural for McGinn.

4-2-3-1 is the same - Coutinho is rubbish on the left, so you're looking at a three behind the striker of Bailey - Coutinho - El Ghazi. The two have to be Kamara and Luiz - so again it's a formation where we need to drop McGinn and Ramsey and play El Ghazi. 

We don't have a left winger in the squad that isn't Anwar.

We're got the players for a 4-3-2-1 that features Buendia and Coutinho and has Kamara, Luiz and either another six or McGinn - but he's stopped playing that to put Bailey in because of his form.

Our major weakness at the moment is Gerrard's Holy Trinity of McGinn, Ramsey and Coutinho - it's pretty much impossible to find a way to play them all at once, but he insists on persisting with it, and on top of that, the fly in the ointment is Bailey's form - which is unbalancing us because we're trying to fly with one wing.

 

Yeah it's been compounded with McGinn as captain too. 

Another way is maybe a 4-1-4-1, but you still need a left winger, the 4 behind the striker would be 

LW ------ Coutinho ---- McGinn (undroppable) ----- Bailey

Then you put a lot of pressure on kamara, but at least the fullbacks have natural cover on the flanks. You also piss Luiz/Ramsey/Sanson/Buendia right off.

[TRO]

19 hours ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

Likely yes. People have been asking for a DM for years, now we have a good one but it still doesn’t solve our midfield problems when the set-up is this way.

but 2/3rds of the midfield is still the same.......McGinn and Luiz are the common denominators, in our midfield combinations.

The majority of the team is lightweight...... we need to go down the "Brute Route" and sign a few players with presence and talent.

[TRO]

7 hours ago, ender4 said:

Though we have a massive squad with all sorts of different players, we know a lot of the those players are European quality, and so a decent manager should be able to be tactically aware enough to use the right players and right formation and right tactics depending on the opponents to outwit them.  Especially when we play a championship level team.

Thats right, but we don't run off the ball, or move to allow the player on the ball and out let...... they then get caught by some neanderthal hell bent on roughing them up...... we don't have any players in the squad to negate that.

Some say, move the ball quicker, to play around the lesser talent.....but they don't move sufficiently to counter the press and so the passing gets shut down.

We are trying to play like Liverpool with the full backs, but we don't have Liverpools talent or their muscle in Matip/Van Dijk/Henderson/Fabinho....to cover.

We seem to be caught in our squad building between a rock and a hard place......smothering our team with lighweight players, with talent, but are getting too easily negated.

In the air the team is bordering on joke proportions.....Other teams use the aerial balls much better than we do, and defend them much better than we do.

[Zatman]

18 minutes ago, TRO said:

but 2/3rds of the midfield is still the same.......McGinn and Luiz are the common denominators, in our midfield combinations.

The majority of the team is lightweight...... we need to go down the "Brute Route" and sign a few players with presence and talent.

Eh Luiz played 8 minutes the last game

[sne]

Aerial duels finished 16-16 against Bournemouth.

[KitKat]

The problem with have with discussing the midfield setups is we have to assume McGinn will be included. I'd like to see 2 of Kamara, Luiz and Tim playing a disciplined role behind the attacking 4, whatever combination that might be of who is "in form". JJ should also be brought on to replace McGinn and not played along side him.

 

I also think trying to make WatkIngs work went a long way to costing Dean his job, as did the 3 at the back, although we might have the players to try that more effectively now.

 

All in all we've still an unbalanced squad in terms of who or what our best players or lineup is, and as we've seen someone ends up missing out - most frequently Buendia in recent games. 5 subs should help us to change systems mid game a bit more easily but it's difficult to see that being a good option when plan A was so poor last game.

 

Against Everton we need to see Konsa, McGinn, JJ and Phil all start from the bench but I'd eat my hat if that actually happens. 

[gordy]

Thought this was interesting, sorry if it was posted before:

 

[OutByEaster?]

Yep - emptying the midfield is our major issue - we need to either have someone who sits next to Kamara or two players who aren't number tens and can hold the halfway line.

When we have the ball, Kamara drops deep - good - but Ramsey and McGinn go forward and there's just a massive empty space - plus by going forward into our already confused one-wing front three, Ramsey and McGinn take away space up front and we end up crowding out our own attacks.

 

[Enda]

Is there any way we could tighten things up by Cash and Digne moving more central? I know it goes completely against Gerrard’s philosophy, but having them hugging the side line contributes to those midfield chasms.

[daft]

29 minutes ago, Enda said:

Is there any way we could tighten things up by Cash and Digne moving more central? I know it goes completely against Gerrard’s philosophy, but having them hugging the side line contributes to those midfield chasms.

Yes, we could possibly play with inverted full backs, but possibly still be overloaded by the opposition in midfield if The other two pushes up too much. They could then use the numerical superiority to press the GB’s coming centrally. 
 

EDIT

 

Also, I fear that could expose our flanks a bit which probably isn’t great considering we are pretty bad at defending crosses into the box.

Edited August 8, 2022 by daft

[romavillan]

9 hours ago, gordy said:

Thought this was interesting, sorry if it was posted before:

 

The whole thread on twitter is worth a read, bang on.

[TomC]

On Saturday, the main tactical problem was not the formation...it was off the ball movement (or lack thereof) and excessive reliance on attacking down the wings.

A 4-2-3-1 or any other formation isn't going to help if nobody makes runs and we use only 1/3 of the width of the field at any given time.

[Tayls]

Did we play with Mings and Carlos together at all during the pre season? 

[Zatman]

Lack of pressing is a huge worry or any idea how to press

Its like some pub team that train once a week and its usually just a 5 a side session

[Anything11]

4 hours ago, TomC said:

On Saturday, the main tactical problem was not the formation...it was off the ball movement (or lack thereof) and excessive reliance on attacking down the wings.

A 4-2-3-1 or any other formation isn't going to help if nobody makes runs and we use only 1/3 of the width of the field at any given time.

 

57 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Lack of pressing is a huge worry or any idea how to press

Its like some pub team that train once a week and its usually just a 5 a side session

 

 

Agree on both accounts. The players look uncomfortable and as if they are overthinking everything rather than trusting their preparation and attacking the game. They are playing within themselves - to varying degrees - and I see it as a lack of confidence. Jack was a beacon for the team in that way - he always went all in and rallied everyone around him (much like Gerrard). We don't have that and it is what I believe Gerrard wants.

[Zatman]

Another problem was his first game of the season line up. You could pick 6/7 players that shouldnt have started or deserve to be dropped for this weeks game

Only Emi, Cash, Carlos, Kamara and Bailey can say have earned the right to play in the Everton game