Team shape, tactics and personnel

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, allani said:

Or that he has good ideas but our players are either not good enough or not willing to adopt them.  The truth is probably somewhere between the two.  Is it the fault of our midfielders that for three seasons we have failed to consistently control the ball in the middle of the pitch and supply quality balls to our attacking players in dangerous positions, whilst at the same time leaving our defence exposed when we lose possession but not tracking back quickly enough.  Or is that a problem with the ideas and approaches that Smith and Gerrard have tried to implement.  We've not got worse under Gerrard (results wise at least) - we just don't seem to have improved as much as we and our owners expected, particularly in light of the fact that our recruitment has been pretty strong in the last two windows.

We still make reference to midfield and rightfully so, In my mind, but 2 players still feature strongly .....first under Dean, and Now under Steve.

The issues are much the same, albeit we have made a potentially fine addition in Kamara, way overdue Imo....but will one addition suffice.

John McGinn and Douglas Luiz are still the main stays of our midfield and yet, reference is made with regularity of how the midfield is our main problem.

Are we missing a trick? are we persisting with the same personnel, expecting different results?.....where is the variation? where is the drive?

No one knows for sure, are we all speculating?, but are we radical enough in our thinking to change things? or are we brave enough to try?

Edited August 9, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

40 minutes ago, allani said:

Or that he has good ideas but our players are either not good enough or not willing to adopt them.  The truth is probably somewhere between the two.  Is it the fault of our midfielders that for three seasons we have failed to consistently control the ball in the middle of the pitch and supply quality balls to our attacking players in dangerous positions, whilst at the same time leaving our defence exposed when we lose possession but not tracking back quickly enough.  Or is that a problem with the ideas and approaches that Smith and Gerrard have tried to implement.  We've not got worse under Gerrard (results wise at least) - we just don't seem to have improved as much as we and our owners expected, particularly in light of the fact that our recruitment has been pretty strong in the last two windows.

Is our focus, too much on big moneyish signings and not on one or two pragmatic signings....to give us balance.

I can think of one or two players been recruited by teams we have finished below....who we would turn our nose up at.

Edited August 9, 2022 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

Game plan, tactics, triangles, players cohesion and all that are key things you look for in preseason not results.  We saw very little of any of that.

I don't necessarily agree, but I don't emphatically disagree either.....when teams are intent on stopping all that....AND YOU LET THEM.......all that goes out the window.

Good players, impose their talent, if not, the talent is wasted.

did Bournemouth do all that, as you have suggested?.....There is more to this game Nick, than just that.

From what I gather, Bournemouth had a poor pre-season.

This game on Saturday, was not a one off....and its not been experienced, by one manager either.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

48 minutes ago, allani said:

Or that he has good ideas but our players are either not good enough or not willing to adopt them.  The truth is probably somewhere between the two.  Is it the fault of our midfielders that for three seasons we have failed to consistently control the ball in the middle of the pitch and supply quality balls to our attacking players in dangerous positions, whilst at the same time leaving our defence exposed when we lose possession but not tracking back quickly enough.  Or is that a problem with the ideas and approaches that Smith and Gerrard have tried to implement.  We've not got worse under Gerrard (results wise at least) - we just don't seem to have improved as much as we and our owners expected, particularly in light of the fact that our recruitment has been pretty strong in the last two windows.

99 percent of the time it's this in bold!

[romavillan]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

The feeling that some players are unhappy (Chukwuemeka, Luiz, Mings, maybe Watkins and Buendia) which I don't think we saw under Smith

This is a really big one for me, the group that came up created an amazing sense of togetherness and a proper team spirit. When Grealish and O'Kelly, Terry, all left that lost a bit of it's shine but I don't think there were players that didn't want to play for Smith.

Now though I think that's pretty much evaporated.

[allani]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

We still make reference to midfield and rightfully so, In my mind, but 2 players still feature strongly .....first under Dean, and Now under Steve.

The issues are much the same, albeit we have made a potentially fine addition in Kamara, way overdue Imo....but will one addition suffice.

John McGinn and Douglas Luiz are still the main stays of our midfield and yet, reference is made with regularity of how the midfield is our main problem.

Are we missing a trick? are we persisting with the same personnel, expecting different results?.....where is the variation? where is the drive?

No one knows for sure, are we all speculating?, but are we radical enough in our thinking to change things? or are we brave enough to try?

This is exactly the point I have been making for probably the best part of 6 months now.  McGinn and Luiz are decent / good players but I just don't think they function as a pair.  Their good points don't combine well and their weaknesses don't cancel each other out.  I honestly believe that not addressing the midfield is ultimately what cost Smith his job and I can't see how Gerrard can get us playing the way he wants us to with McGinn, Luiz, JJ or Sanson operating as 2 of the 4 midfielders.  If he doesn't recognise that then it will cost him his job as well.  And it will continue to cost managers their jobs until the issue is addressed.

If it first you don't succeed, try, try and try again but if you still aren't succeeding maybe you need to try something different. 

[allani]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

Is our focus, too much on big moneyish signings and not on one or two pragmatic signings....to give us balance.

I can think of one or two players been recruited by teams we have finished below....who we would turn our nose up at.

I don't think the size of the transfer / wage is that important.  I think we have made some good pragmatic signings - Chambers, Augustininininin and Young.  But what we need is someone to give the midfield the balance it needs - a cross between Kamara and Luiz.  Ideally someone with a bit of "spunk" in them who will put a rocket up the ar5es of the players who tend to disappear when we are struggling - like our new captain.

[KentVillan]

1 hour ago, WHY said:

Mings fell out with Smith, Watkins had a face like a smacked arse for most of last season, Buendia was throwing his arms in the air in most games under Smith. Chuck got plenty of chances under Gerrard. 
 

Gerrard needs to improve but the same players were unhappy under Smith. 

The Mings thing happened right at the very end, and was indeed a mistake on Smith's side. Watkins I don't think had any beef with Smith, was just frustrated. Buendia was a brand new signing.

It's not that we were firing on all cylinders under Smith, but I felt he worked very hard on keeping the dressing room happy - perhaps too happy.

Gerrard is trying more of a tough love approach, I think, which is fine if you get results, but if you don't, it just leads to things falling apart a bit, and good players getting worse, while the bad players doss about.

My point is I see the old signs of an unhappy dressing room, and while there's plenty of time to turn that around with a few results, if the rot sets in, it will get nasty.

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, allani said:

This is exactly the point I have been making for probably the best part of 6 months now.  McGinn and Luiz are decent / good players but I just don't think they function as a pair.  Their good points don't combine well and their weaknesses don't cancel each other out.  I honestly believe that not addressing the midfield is ultimately what cost Smith his job and I can't see how Gerrard can get us playing the way he wants us to with McGinn, Luiz, JJ or Sanson operating as 2 of the 4 midfielders.  If he doesn't recognise that then it will cost him his job as well.  And it will continue to cost managers their jobs until the issue is addressed.

If it first you don't succeed, try, try and try again but if you still aren't succeeding maybe you need to try something different. 

I concur.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, ciggiesnbeer said:

I am in this camp. I am still strongly pro Gerrard but Saturday really was a big deal.

Teams wanting to compete in Europe dont lose to an understrength championship team in that manner.

So you have many of us dealing with the whiplash of expectations that the club and manager has set.

It really was bad and the managers comments have made the situation much worse.

I agree cherry picking stats about Gerrard is silly, but I also think leaving a manager in place if he continues this direction would be a mistake.

I dont actually care about Gerrard I DO care about Villa pushing into Europe THIS season, not next season THIS season. if he doesnt turn this around in August then I would be supportive oif him being sacked. Seriously what are we waiting for? He has had a full pre season and has been backed to the hilt. 

I look forward to praising him after Everton for an emphatic victory. If not and these are two of the easiest games this season then I may turn. I dont want games to slip away this season. I want Europe now and we have spent to get that.

 

I don't care, how much we have spent, if we still have issues, its arguable if it has worked.

In terms of first team players......Carlos and Kamara, is not enough, all the others are cover.

We need players to make a difference, and just two, is not enough to fix the problems.

[momo]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't care, how much we have spent, if we still have issues, its arguable if it has worked.

In terms of first team players......Carlos and Kamara, is not enough, all the others are cover.

We need players to make a difference, and just two, is not enough to fix the problems.

Do you want to buy a 9 more players, Steven?

[TRO]

16 minutes ago, allani said:

I don't think the size of the transfer / wage is that important.  I think we have made some good pragmatic signings - Chambers, Augustininininin and Young.  But what we need is someone to give the midfield the balance it needs - a cross between Kamara and Luiz.  Ideally someone with a bit of "spunk" in them who will put a rocket up the ar5es of the players who tend to disappear when we are struggling - like our new captain.

precisely, my point....but the 3 players you mentioned are all cover and one a loan...we need first teamers.

That won't get us in to Europe.

[Villarocker]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't care, how much we have spent, if we still have issues, its arguable if it has worked.

In terms of first team players......Carlos and Kamara, is not enough, all the others are cover.

We need players to make a difference, and just two, is not enough to fix the problems.

That's the easy way to look at our situation for any Villa fan, really. If you'd have asked at the end of last season; would the signings of Kamara and Carlos make such a difference to our starting eleven, not many people would have been satisfied with that. I wasn't! 

Now, we need to see if more are added before the end of this transfer window. Personally, I think the owners are balancing the books because of the stadium refurb. Hopefully, they can still raise enough money to bring in another one or two starters before the window shuts. Otherwise, I don't see us finishing much higher, if at all, than last season. 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

Problem is the first game was just a continuation of last season that’s why people are mentioning it.  After all preseason and a few new players, first game out of the block we see the same thing….that’s why!  We aren’t looking for a miracle change but some differences surely? Yes one game but if anything it was all the bad things from 2022 wrapped into one game against Bournemouth.  Forget the result, a loss can always happen but the performance showed the same issues as last season.  We look like a bunch of talented players that have never played or talked before and don’t have a game plan.

No ......we look like a bunch of talented players, that have allowed themselves to be out fought and negated.....and in doing so failed to execute that said talent.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, Villarocker said:

That's the easy way to look at our situation for any Villa fan, really. If you'd have asked at the end of last season; would the signings of Kamara and Carlos make such a difference to our starting eleven, not many people would have been satisfied with that. I wasn't! 

Now, we need to see if more are added before the end of this transfer window. Personally, I think the owners are balancing the books because of the stadium refurb. Hopefully, they can still raise enough money to bring in another one or two starters before the window shuts. Otherwise, I don't see us finishing much higher, if at all, than last season. 

maybe all the good meat has gone.....only the offal remains.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, nick76 said:

You may feel different but you seem to want to blame anybody but Gerrard.  Yes the players deserve some blame along with others but the buck stops with Gerrard.  We have talented players that don’t seem to know what they are meant to be doing.  When it’s one or two players or even a few more, it’s easy to say it’s form or something but we are seeing the whole team underperforming so that’s down to the manager, Gerrard.

I think his mistakes, is not bringing in enough stature and combative players.....just like Dean.

I have to say, I am surprised.

Carlos is a centre back, so it follows, he will bring Stature....but If Mings is out, who else is north of 6 feet....so one in one out...negated.

Kamara is a potentially a fine signing.....but the main elements of midfield are still there....small in stature too.

We have just witnessed the trend setters sign up 2 x 6 foot plus centre Forwards....indicating a change in mood from the big boys....our don't even clear 6 feet, yet we pump in high balls.

are we really surprised, we are stuggling?

Our team is puny...and unless we find way of passing arounds teams, we have little else as a weapon and thats difficult when the running off the ball is a luxury as opposed to a welcome chore.....and when they decide to beat us to the ball or play the man, we are fuched.

[allani]

31 minutes ago, TRO said:

precisely, my point....but the 3 players you mentioned are all cover and one a loan...we need first teamers.

That won't get us in to Europe.

In that case I misunderstood your point about pragmatic players.  Our midfield signing definitely needs to be someone who can lead the midfield because Luiz, McGinn, JJ and Sanson can't.  Kamara probably can but it is a bit early for him.  It would be great if they were under 25 and we could rely on them for a number of seasons but I wouldn't be averse to a slightly older player who can give us that balance / leadership for a couple of seasons.  Unfortunately I am beginning to think that Gerrard thinks that McGinn can be that person.  If he does then we are in line for another season knocking around lower mid-table.

[eholm]

55 minutes ago, allani said:

This is exactly the point I have been making for probably the best part of 6 months now.  McGinn and Luiz are decent / good players but I just don't think they function as a pair.  Their good points don't combine well and their weaknesses don't cancel each other out.  I honestly believe that not addressing the midfield is ultimately what cost Smith his job and I can't see how Gerrard can get us playing the way he wants us to with McGinn, Luiz, JJ or Sanson operating as 2 of the 4 midfielders.  If he doesn't recognise that then it will cost him his job as well.  And it will continue to cost managers their jobs until the issue is addressed.

If it first you don't succeed, try, try and try again but if you still aren't succeeding maybe you need to try something different. 

There are a good number of posters on here that 100% share your views on the midfield 2. This hasn’t been addressed for a couple of years now. 
 

What absolutely staggers me is that one if the best CMs in a generation can’t see this - I mean he paired JJ and JM on Sat FFS!! He says he’s looking to strengthen but hasn’t. How can he watch JJ and JM play as 8s together and genuinely believe that it works?? It hasn’t for bloody months. What does he see that a lot of us don’t? It is disgraceful that he has been here 10 months and still hasn’t sorted the area of the pitch that he so wonderfully controlled as a player. 

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, allani said:

In that case I misunderstood your point about pragmatic players.  Our midfield signing definitely needs to be someone who can lead the midfield because Luiz, McGinn, JJ and Sanson can't.  Kamara probably can but it is a bit early for him.  It would be great if they were under 25 and we could rely on them for a number of seasons but I wouldn't be averse to a slightly older player who can give us that balance / leadership for a couple of seasons.  Unfortunately I am beginning to think that Gerrard thinks that McGinn can be that person.  If he does then we are in line for another season knocking around lower mid-table.

I think that will be, one of his mistakes.

[ciggiesnbeer]

59 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't care, how much we have spent, if we still have issues, its arguable if it has worked.

In terms of first team players......Carlos and Kamara, is not enough, all the others are cover.

We need players to make a difference, and just two, is not enough to fix the problems.

Granted. But this strengthened team should be more than good enough to beat an understrength Championship side. 
Bournemouth didnt really ride their luck either. They just kept to the game plan which worked and we kept to ours, which clearly wasnt. Thats on the manager, it really is. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by ciggiesnbeer