Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Tomaszk]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

The full backs are not playing to their full attacking potential, while we have an indifferent unbalanced midfield.

I am not saying you are wrong by the way......but what was our results like when we did play with wingers.

We got 55 points which would have us 8th this season. 6th in some other seasons.

2 hours ago, TRO said:

My suggestion is, our biggest problem is, we can't control the play, well enough.

We don't have much composure in the side. Shakiness starts from Mings, goes through McGinn and finishes with Watkins. These three play every game.

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Folk talk up Eddie Howe.....but look who ( what type) he has brought in, no real technical world beaters, but he had won one game before the January window opened.....and those signings was not highly technical types.

The only player of note they signed was Guimaraes who we could have got in the summer or January. I doubt we'll ever sign a player of that level.

2 hours ago, TRO said:

Our problems reach much further than swapping wingers for attacking full backs and like you I hope SG fixes it in the summer.

We're severely limited by this narrow shape and I can't see how that changes. So often we get near to the area and it ends up with a cross being slung in - sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. There's no penetration there. Look at City. They have two men camped on the touchline every attack, it spreads the defence out thinner.

[Villa_Vids]

11 hours ago, tinker said:

Burnley let us have the ball outside of the box knowing Pope would likely save any shots from out there. We was confined to high balls, crosses, in from the full backs, Burnley just defended them well. 

We had the occasional long ball in on counters , which we eventually scored from. 

Dreadful football really , especially with the players we have. Bertie had the best chance from a header for us , Pope pulled off a world class save but Ming's blocks a shot that was into an open goal as well.

We are so one dimensional and simple to play against , I can see a DM helping us defensively but we look clueless going forward, slow and devoid of any ideas. 

It going to take a major turn around for us to improve next season and if I'm honest I see big holes in Gerrard and his back room teams ideas and tactics.

It's stick or bust time for us, my feeling is Gerrard will be gone by December.  

We were fine going forward. Burnley just defended, defended and defended. It was with all their lives. Pope out of this world too. On another day that would have been 3-4 goals to us. It was a strong performance against a team in the situation of must not lose. We defended well against them, except for the 5-10 min spell when the goal came, we did not get a grip of the game by retaining the ball and moving higher up the pitch. Small details away from being a team who competes for higher places IMO. We just need fine tuning in attack and developing our game management. We would have lost that game a few months ago IMO.

I think you are wrong about Gerrard, I think by December we will be a better place and position overall. SG knows what the issues are and where we need to improve. We need to support him and give him space to build the team. UTV.

[MaVilla]

9 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

We got 55 points which would have us 8th this season. 6th in some other seasons.

We don't have much composure in the side. Shakiness starts from Mings, goes through McGinn and finishes with Watkins. These three play every game.

The only player of note they signed was Guimaraes who we could have got in the summer or January. I doubt we'll ever sign a player of that level.

We're severely limited by this narrow shape and I can't see how that changes. So often we get near to the area and it ends up with a cross being slung in - sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. There's no penetration there. Look at City. They have two men camped on the touchline every attack, it spreads the defence out thinner.

i thought about this, and tbh, i think its a moot point.

Every team had some benefits or negatives from the covid "no crowds" etc, so i dont think it can be equated to another season, otherwise every other team in the top 10 above us, say "we would have finished in X place in a normal year".

But it wasnt a normal year, and the results reflected that, my point is, we got enough points for 11th, in a weird season, so 11th is 11th, as 10 other teams got more points due to the nature of the covid season also, i think that season is an outlier, where the final points were just the final points, and due to the nature of no crowds, less pressure, etc etc, that season was kind of a season in of itself.

[TRO]

55 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

We got 55 points which would have us 8th this season. 6th in some other seasons.

We don't have much composure in the side. Shakiness starts from Mings, goes through McGinn and finishes with Watkins. These three play every game.

The only player of note they signed was Guimaraes who we could have got in the summer or January. I doubt we'll ever sign a player of that level.

We're severely limited by this narrow shape and I can't see how that changes. So often we get near to the area and it ends up with a cross being slung in - sometimes it'll work, sometimes it won't. There's no penetration there. Look at City. They have two men camped on the touchline every attack, it spreads the defence out thinner.

That was last season when we had Jack Grealish for large portions?

This season, we got 3 wins in 11 games without him....but still playing with wingers.

I am not convinced by this argument.

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by TRO

[sne]

Wingers who were all injured att the start of THE season

[Risso]

We just need better players. McGinn has performed as McGinn always does. 3 goals in each of his three Premier League seasons, just nowhere near good enough. Against Liverpool, Spurs, Palace and Burnley at home, we had 63 shots, from which we scored the grand total of three goals. Neither Watkins or Ings are good enough for a side that wants to finish top 6.

[Zatman]

8 minutes ago, Risso said:

We just need better players. McGinn has performed as McGinn always does. 3 goals in each of his three Premier League seasons, just nowhere near good enough. Against Liverpool, Spurs, Palace and Burnley at home, we had 63 shots, from which we scored the grand total of three goals. Neither Watkins or Ings are good enough for a side that wants to finish top 6.

McGinn will be starting here next season, the manager loves him and talk of a new deal 

[Zatman]

14 hours ago, TRO said:

That was last season when we had Jack Grealish for large portions?

This season, we got 3 wins in 11 games without him....but still playing with wingers.

I am not convinced by this argument.

 

We played 5 at the back for most of them games and when we did play wingers I am sure Ashley Young played wide we had so many injuries

[VillaParkAvenue]

1 hour ago, Risso said:

We just need better players. McGinn has performed as McGinn always does. 3 goals in each of his three Premier League seasons, just nowhere near good enough. Against Liverpool, Spurs, Palace and Burnley at home, we had 63 shots, from which we scored the grand total of three goals. Neither Watkins or Ings are good enough for a side that wants to finish top 6.

Well, Gerrard loves McGinn and Watkins so to get rid of those players you would have to begin with sacking the manager.

[Rich192]

I’m sure I’m not alone in not liking this formation, either the two 10s or the diamond. It seems like whichever one we play, we’re easy to play through, and without much attacking fluidity. We actually play better with the diamond, but that means dropping Buendia or Coutinho, and we must find a way to play them both. 
 

I’m also sure that we’ve all got an opinion on who to sign, who to retain in the first team, etc. Well here’s the formation and current players I’d be happy with for next season:

 

—————————Martinez————————

Cash———NEW————Mings*———Digne

——————NEW————NEW———————

Buendia—————Coutinho—————NEW

———————Ings/Watkins*———————
 

*If someone better is available on the market, then absolutely fine by me, bring them in, but I don’t see it as urgent for this window.

 

I think it was Delphinho who said they could see Ramsey in that AML role, and I agree, which would solve us finding a place for him in the team, and also not needing to find someone new there. 
 

The midfield two need to be players who can defend, and also pass. Two of Kamara, Bissouma, Sangare or Phillips would be great. I haven’t seen Kamara or Sangare, so one with Prem experience would probably be prudent, and my preference would be Kamara and Bissouma. 
 

It does show that we’re only a few players away from a good side. It’s also irrelevant, as McGinn will be in any midfield next season. 
 

That’s my tuppence, anyway, for what it’s worth. 

[CVByrne]

10 minutes ago, Rich192 said:

I’m sure I’m not alone in not liking this formation, either the two 10s or the diamond. It seems like whichever one we play, we’re easy to play through, and without much attacking fluidity. We actually play better with the diamond, but that means dropping Buendia or Coutinho, and we must find a way to play them both. 
 

I’m also sure that we’ve all got an opinion on who to sign, who to retain in the first team, etc. Well here’s the formation and current players I’d be happy with for next season:

 

—————————Martinez————————

Cash———NEW————Mings*———Digne

——————NEW————NEW———————

Buendia—————Coutinho—————NEW

———————Ings/Watkins*———————
 

*If someone better is available on the market, then absolutely fine by me, bring them in, but I don’t see it as urgent for this window.

 

I think it was Delphinho who said they could see Ramsey in that AML role, and I agree, which would solve us finding a place for him in the team, and also not needing to find someone new there. 
 

The midfield two need to be players who can defend, and also pass. Two of Kamara, Bissouma, Sangare or Phillips would be great. I haven’t seen Kamara or Sangare, so one with Prem experience would probably be prudent, and my preference would be Kamara and Bissouma. 
 

It does show that we’re only a few players away from a good side. It’s also irrelevant, as McGinn will be in any midfield next season. 
 

That’s my tuppence, anyway, for what it’s worth. 

 

The thing people forget about the 4 3 2 1 is it's defensive solidity. We've conceded fewer on average and we've lower xGA in that formation vs the 4 3 1 2 (and better than anything under Smith). Now on the balance so far I'd give it to the 4 3 1 2 formation as we carry a better goal threat for a slight drop off in the defensive side. I think 4 2 3 1 will never happen under Gerrard so people calling for it are wasting their time. 

The one constant this season under Gerrard is the attacking full backs and 3 man midfield with the 8s covering the space behind the full backs. It's now working very well and that's one big positive from the season. I think if we had a proper finisher alongside Watkins we'd do well next season, either Ings getting back into form or a new CF who is clinical with their movement and finishing. A CDM will free our 8s to get more involved in the attacks and both McGinn and Ramsey can score goals, talented from range. Add in pre-season and the winter break pre-season 2. We should be a more refined attacking outfit while improving defensively especially in transition. 

I think we can make a big leap forward in performances with the right additions and a fit team for pre season.

[Delphinho123]

2 hours ago, Rich192 said:

I’m sure I’m not alone in not liking this formation, either the two 10s or the diamond. It seems like whichever one we play, we’re easy to play through, and without much attacking fluidity. We actually play better with the diamond, but that means dropping Buendia or Coutinho, and we must find a way to play them both. 
 

I’m also sure that we’ve all got an opinion on who to sign, who to retain in the first team, etc. Well here’s the formation and current players I’d be happy with for next season:

 

—————————Martinez————————

Cash———NEW————Mings*———Digne

——————NEW————NEW———————

Buendia—————Coutinho—————NEW

———————Ings/Watkins*———————
 

*If someone better is available on the market, then absolutely fine by me, bring them in, but I don’t see it as urgent for this window.

 

I think it was Delphinho who said they could see Ramsey in that AML role, and I agree, which would solve us finding a place for him in the team, and also not needing to find someone new there. 
 

The midfield two need to be players who can defend, and also pass. Two of Kamara, Bissouma, Sangare or Phillips would be great. I haven’t seen Kamara or Sangare, so one with Prem experience would probably be prudent, and my preference would be Kamara and Bissouma. 
 

It does show that we’re only a few players away from a good side. It’s also irrelevant, as McGinn will be in any midfield next season. 
 

That’s my tuppence, anyway, for what it’s worth. 

Best post I’ve read in a long time and I fully agree with all of it. I think the club can probably improve on Mings and Watkins, but they’re also probably well aware it would cost a lot and it’s not like they’re bad players. We have issues elsewhere that need addressing. 

FWIW, I don’t think we’ll move away from this 4-3-2-1 formation anytime soon and like you say, I think McGinn will still be an ever present next season. 

I’m happy to back Gerrard to get the right players to play his system but I would much prefer to play a 4-2-3-1 with Coutinho as the 10.

[MWARLEY2]

Just watched the game back against Burnley earlier. 

And saw Buendia Coutinho and Traore all a couple of yards from one another in attacking positions. 

I would suggest this formation needs some work

[Zatman]

2 hours ago, jacketspuds said:

Our squad is poor. Gerrard might not be the man to take us forward in the long-term, but any manager would struggle with this bunch of bottlers.

The signing of Kamara, if it happens, is very encouraging. But, we need 3 or 4 more players of real quality to compete.

Gerrard will attract quality players, and needs to be feeling the pressure to get them to play after pre-season.

Our squad is not poor

[DaveAV1]

4 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Our squad is not poor

It’s unbalanced. We have lots of wingers and other attacking options but not enough in the middle of the pitch. We need to solve that and hopefully the painfully weak mentality at the same time. Then we’ll win the league. 

[jacketspuds]

17 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Our squad is not poor

You’ve convinced me.

[Demitri_C]

28 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Our squad is not poor

Average but most importantly weak and fragile.

Thata what is holding us back big time

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

Yes, I remember you saying this a lot last year when discussions on subs came up. 

 

I'm kinda hinting, hopefully this will change next season. I can see what Gerrard is trying to do, but we have not got the players to do it.....yet!

[jim]

16 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

But you said this about Smith earlier this season in this thread.

We were five points off 10th place when Smith was sacked (literally “a handful of points”). We were two points off our final league of 14th at the time of Smith’s sacking.

So in the one instance you’re praising the manager for turning the season round after a poor start (16th to 9th in the form table) whereas the previous improvement (15th to 3rd in the form table) you dismissed it as just underperforming by the previous manager (Bruce) and it wasn’t anything noteworthy.

It’s this inconsistency that grates. And this constant desire to put down Smith at every available opportunity. And I suspect I’m not the only one to notice this. It’s often stated by those who weren’t fans of his that some of us can’t let go. Frankly I think there are some of his detractors on here who need to let his time here go.

The team was underperforming in both cases and the manager changes proved and rectified that they were underperforming (to varying extents).

Not inconsistent at all. The Championship team was underperforming under Bruce and was better than 95% of the teams in the league.

Our current squad is probably around 9th in the Premier League which is exactly the position we would be in games played under Gerrard. If we had a team on par with City, Liverpool you’d have a point but we don’t.

[theboyangel]

As I see it, ahead of pre-season these are the only players who are guaranteed starters next season

Martinez

Cash

Mings

Digne

Ramsey

Coutinho

Buendia

 

we need a first XI Centreback, Defensive midfielder, central midfielder and a striker in this transfer window.