Transgenderism

[Seat68]

47 minutes ago, TreeVillan said:

The only person in your family you're close with? Do you believe this to now be under threat because she holds an opinion you dislike? 

Not at all, I love my sister, I would not sever ties with her for opinions, it disappoints me though. I will always be close to her. I may need a kidney.

[Follyfoot]

My sister is a fully paid up and married Lesbian, her and her partner have some pretty strong (negative) views on transgender as do a fair few of their social circle apparently. Is this quire common or are they the exception rather than the rule? 

[Xela]

14 hours ago, maqroll said:

 

I've been working with them for about 4 months now, and about a month ago I learned that Mark uses they/them pronouns, strictly by chance while I was overhearing a conversation.

Anyway, today I said to Mark something to the effect of "Oh man, I'm sorry to hear that!" (He recently injured his foot). 

He immediately said, "I use they/them pronouns. Did you not know that?"

To which I replied, "Yes I heard. Pardon me, I'll try to be more cognizant of that."

He said "No problem, it's natural."

So......It wasn't too awkward, but I found it weird nonetheless.

 

I don't think you have done anything wrong there. "oh man" is an expression, like 'oh God" or "oh dear". It's not aimed at a specific gender. 

I think they were being a bit of a word removed. 

[maqroll]

4 hours ago, BOF said:

It's not a slip-up though. I use that expression talking to women too. It has absolutely nothing to do with the recipient or their gender.

Exactly, and that's why I think the overpolicing of language, particularly when no offense was intended or should have even been perceived, can only backfire on those who do the policing, who theoretically are advocates for Trans/Non-binary issues.

They are forcing a wedge issue into the conversation that I think can alienate some  people who are otherwise sympathetic to their struggles for rights and protection under the law, issues that seem to me to be of much greater significance. 

 

[mjmooney]

3 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

My sister is a fully paid up and married Lesbian, her and her partner have some pretty strong (negative) views on transgender as do a fair few of their social circle apparently. Is this quire common or are they the exception rather than the rule? 

Very common. 

 

[Demitri_C]

19 hours ago, maqroll said:

It was bound to happen eventually, but today I was "corrected" for the first time,  not by a transgendered person, but a non-binary one. A person I work with. Their name is Mark, who lives with another co-worker of ours, a woman named Erica. Mark is someone who was quite clearly born "male", and Erica "female", and that's how she self-identifies. Mark however, does not self-identify as male, and uses they/them pronouns. They (Mark AND Erica) are in their early 30's.

I've been working with them for about 4 months now, and about a month ago I learned that Mark uses they/them pronouns, strictly by chance while I was overhearing a conversation.

Anyway, today I said to Mark something to the effect of "Oh man, I'm sorry to hear that!" (He recently injured his foot). 

He immediately said, "I use they/them pronouns. Did you not know that?"

To which I replied, "Yes I heard. Pardon me, I'll try to be more cognizant of that."

He said "No problem, it's natural."

So......It wasn't too awkward, but I found it weird nonetheless. And it's not like they (Mark) ever mentioned it to me directly, or introduced themself like that, or even confirmed that someone else had informed me of it, so if I'm honest, I was a bit bemused by their (Mark's) reaction to my use of "man", especially because it was less of a label I was directing at them (Mark), but rather more of a exclamation. In my opinion, they (just Mark) over-reacted. 

They goes by Mark, lives with a woman, outwardly presents as a heterosexual male, but yet prefers and insists on people referring to Them (Mark) as They (Mark, singular), and I guess insists on people perceiving them as not male or at least pretending to perceive them as not male. I suppose it would be a lot easier to view them as non-binary if they were more gender neutral in appearance and mannerisms. I guess it's up to me to overcome that mental hurdle, maybe for everyone I initially meet, because you never know who might identify as what. My sister works in the non-profit sector and says all her business meetings, in person and online begin with everyone announcing their pronouns. So good luck when there are 14 people on a Zoom call and you have to remember all their pronouns. It's a high wire act.

But it's the reconfiguration of basic principles of grammar that I find to be the one aspect of this broader issue that I'm least sympathetic with. It is really difficult to reorient a lifetime of one's reflexive use of language and childhood instruction to accommodate the newly mainstreamed sensitivities of a relatively small demographic group of people. I'm just not sure how practical it is for society at large to make this shift, up to and including the reshaping of language instruction in kindergarten classrooms and beyond. 

When it comes to political support, I'm behind every group represented on the pride flag and beyond. This grammar thing though, it's tough!

 

I wouldnt worry about it you are not a mind reader! 

[Demitri_C]

5 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

My sister is a fully paid up and married Lesbian, her and her partner have some pretty strong (negative) views on transgender as do a fair few of their social circle apparently. Is this quire common or are they the exception rather than the rule? 

not just Lesbian but gays too. Ive got a cousin who is the same. Certain parts of transgender related subjects are very controversial so not every one will agree

[Chindie]

Theres a belief amongst some lesbian and gay people that transgenderism is a threat to their community. The theory being that masculine lesbians and feminine gay men may increasingly be convinced that they actually have gender identity issues and aren't just simply butch women who like women or effete men that like dick, they're heterosexuals in the wrong body.

Theres also some in the gay and lesbian community that believe trans issues are different to homosexuality concerns and therefore they shouldn't be lumped together or treated as the same community.

And there's the feminist angle whereby to varying degrees transgenderism is believed to threaten feminism and it's advances, which some lesbians and vocal feminists align with particularly strongly.

[maqroll]

The policing of pronouns also has a chilling effect on what might otherwise be a relaxed and warm relationship. 

If someone feels like the more they speak the more likely they'll eventually say the wrong thing, the less likely it is they'll want to engage with the person enforcing the rules.

Today I found myself engaging less.

[jackbauer24]

I find the debate around transgenderism fascinating and can see where arguments come from on both sides. There are obviously some more extreme views on both sides that I don't agree with, and some aspects which I suspect are basically impossible to resolve. In the main, live and let live is my motto about everything but that's not always possible when it comes to rights/safety/sport etc.

I have, like 99% of people, no answers! I'll try and respect people's views and keep as many people happy as possible but I try to form what I think is a middle ground approach. I like to debate and understand a topic, without questions or queries being used as 'evidence' of bigotry. There are no silly questions if people don't understand. People are told to educate themselves, but how can they when they get shot down for asking questions?!

To this end, despite many more outlandish examples, I think the only thing that can really be used as a reasonable reference point is age. Not perfect, but as close as I can think.

On the day we are born we are scientifically assigned sex (98.3%) and a birth day (100%!).

Through out our lives we may identify as younger or older than we are. We may be more mature or less mature. We may grow old 'disgracefully', we may be mature beyond our years. We can dress younger or older, we can do what we like in our spare time, we can get treatments to make us look younger, we can date with massive age gaps, we can largely ignore the age we are and dismiss it as a number.

But we are not treated differently based on how we feel when it comes to certain things. We can not drink in a pub because we feel mature, we can not claim a bus pass because we feel old, we can not play U12s football when we're 35, we can not have sex when we're not old enough. No one really argues that.

Furthermore, there are many medical issues that cause people to stop developing mentally and having the mental age of a child even as a middle aged person. We care for these people and support them, they're still not allowed to take part in activities just for children.

There is a cut off. And I think this is where I feel my thinking falls. If you feel different from the sex you were born (gender as I understand the terminology) then I fully endorse and support your right to dress as you wish, do as you wish, change your appearance as you wish, date as you wish, be called what you want and largely ignore your assigned sex, but I'm not sure I fully understand/recognise why it is unreasonable to suggest there are certain lines that still can't be crossed for the good of society as a whole.

Sport is the 'easist' one as far as I'm concerned (other than the 1.7% intersex which is a different discussion) as it does not matter if I feel old for my age, I can't enter an over 50s football competition. Or if I feel young for my age, I can't enter a U12s league. So if my sex doesn't match my feelings then, in my mind, the rules still apply; join the league that fits your scientific sex OR join/create a league that is open to a similar group.

I'm fairly confident, in an open environment, this viewpoint would be slaughtered or considered insensitive. But why? I'd love to know what I'm missing or not considering so I can learn and grow without being shutdown for asking a question.

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, maqroll said:

The policing of pronouns also has a chilling effect on what might otherwise be a relaxed and warm relationship. 

If someone feels like the more they speak the more likely they'll eventually say the wrong thing, the less likely it is they'll want to engage with the person enforcing the rules.

Today I found myself engaging less.

Welcome to old age. 

That is the same story you hear from older people regarding modern language around race. 

[chrisp65]

10 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

My sister is a fully paid up and married Lesbian, her and her partner have some pretty strong (negative) views on transgender as do a fair few of their social circle apparently. Is this quire common or are they the exception rather than the rule? 

In my experience, a noisy minority.

[maqroll]

2 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Welcome to old age. 

That is the same story you hear from older people regarding modern language around race. 

 It's a rather obvious false equivalency you're making and drawing me into. I'm not worried about saying "the wrong thing" to someone of another race, because I don't have racist beliefs that might make things fraught for me. Nor am I uncomfortable with "modern language around race", assuming you mean concepts like justice, equity, liberation, reparations, "wokeness", etc. Do you know why I'm not uncomfortable with it, despite my "old age"? Because I'm not a racist and I support those ideas, and I haven't just talked the talk in that regard.

So while I don't find conversations with people of another race fraught, I find speaking with people who use alternative pronouns to be inherently fraught, because you are expected to or at least strongly encouraged to vigilantly adhere to a wholesale reconfiguration of ingrained grammatical norms. It's a minefield of looming mistakes and awkward apologies.

There are no split second grammatical recalibrations expected of you when speaking the "modern language around race". But there ARE when speaking with non-binary or gender fluid people who use alternative pronouns, and that was my basic point, and if you read my longer posts above the one you quoted, that might be clearer to you.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by maqroll

[LondonLax]

2 hours ago, maqroll said:

 It's a rather obvious false equivalency you're making and drawing me into. I'm not worried about saying "the wrong thing" to someone of another race, because I don't have racist beliefs that might make things fraught for me. Nor am I uncomfortable with "modern language around race", assuming you mean concepts like justice, equity, liberation, reparations, "wokeness", etc. Do you know why I'm not uncomfortable with it, despite my "old age"? Because I'm not a racist and I support those ideas, and I haven't just talked the talk in that regard.

So while I don't find conversations with people of another race fraught, I find speaking with people who use alternative pronouns to be inherently fraught, because you are expected to or at least strongly encouraged to vigilantly adhere to a wholesale reconfiguration of ingrained grammatical norms. It's a minefield of looming mistakes and awkward apologies.

There are no split second grammatical recalibrations expected of you when speaking the "modern language around race". But there ARE when speaking with non-binary or gender fluid people who use alternative pronouns, and that was my basic point, and if you read my longer posts above the one you quoted, that might be clearer to you.

 

There are plenty of instances where a person is not actually racist but says the wrong word because language has changed in their lifetime but they somehow didn’t get the memo. 

I am not suggesting you are racist or are transphobic, I am just pointing out that we can be quick to judge people who say something that is considered racist in modern language even if it might not have been many years before when they learnt that word. Now they have to relearn language as the world has changed. 

[Stevo985]

18 hours ago, Follyfoot said:

My sister is a fully paid up and married Lesbian, her and her partner have some pretty strong (negative) views on transgender as do a fair few of their social circle apparently. Is this quire common or are they the exception rather than the rule? 

My sister is also a lesbian and yes it’s very common. She doesn’t share that view (although she does fall into the trap of being obsessed with the effect on sports that others often are) but she has friends who definitely do

[maqroll]

 

17 hours ago, LondonLax said:

 I am just pointing out that we can be quick to judge people who say something that is considered racist in modern language even if it might not have been many years before when they learnt that word. Now they have to relearn language as the world has changed. 

Got it. But I don't think the older generations have to "relearn language", they just have to stop using a select few words that are no longer socially acceptable. 

But having to tactically turn rudimentary mechanics of language upside down to accommodate someone's self-conception seems a much more complicated set of linguistical circumstances.

 

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by maqroll

[CVByrne]

On 17/08/2023 at 23:20, maqroll said:

It was bound to happen eventually, but today I was "corrected" for the first time,  not by a transgendered person, but a non-binary one. A person I work with. Their name is Mark, who lives with another co-worker of ours, a woman named Erica. Mark is someone who was quite clearly born "male", and Erica "female", and that's how she self-identifies. Mark however, does not self-identify as male, and uses they/them pronouns. They (Mark AND Erica) are in their early 30's.

I've been working with them for about 4 months now, and about a month ago I learned that Mark uses they/them pronouns, strictly by chance while I was overhearing a conversation.

Anyway, today I said to Mark something to the effect of "Oh man, I'm sorry to hear that!" (He recently injured his foot). 

He immediately said, "I use they/them pronouns. Did you not know that?"

To which I replied, "Yes I heard. Pardon me, I'll try to be more cognizant of that."

He said "No problem, it's natural."

So......It wasn't too awkward, but I found it weird nonetheless. And it's not like they (Mark) ever mentioned it to me directly, or introduced themself like that, or even confirmed that someone else had informed me of it, so if I'm honest, I was a bit bemused by their (Mark's) reaction to my use of "man", especially because it was less of a label I was directing at them (Mark), but rather more of a exclamation. In my opinion, they (just Mark) over-reacted. 

They goes by Mark, lives with a woman, outwardly presents as a heterosexual male, but yet prefers and insists on people referring to Them (Mark) as They (Mark, singular), and I guess insists on people perceiving them as not male or at least pretending to perceive them as not male. I suppose it would be a lot easier to view them as non-binary if they were more gender neutral in appearance and mannerisms. I guess it's up to me to overcome that mental hurdle, maybe for everyone I initially meet, because you never know who might identify as what. My sister works in the non-profit sector and says all her business meetings, in person and online begin with everyone announcing their pronouns. So good luck when there are 14 people on a Zoom call and you have to remember all their pronouns. It's a high wire act.

But it's the reconfiguration of basic principles of grammar that I find to be the one aspect of this broader issue that I'm least sympathetic with. It is really difficult to reorient a lifetime of one's reflexive use of language and childhood instruction to accommodate the newly mainstreamed sensitivities of a relatively small demographic group of people. I'm just not sure how practical it is for society at large to make this shift, up to and including the reshaping of language instruction in kindergarten classrooms and beyond. 

When it comes to political support, I'm behind every group represented on the pride flag and beyond. This grammar thing though, it's tough!

 

I think the pronoun stuff is one where we could just create a new word. For example German language has always had male/female/neutral for their grammar. Der/Die/Das

We should just create a new neutral word for adoption for people who would like to use gender neutral pronouns. Seems the most pragmatic and logical way and would meet less resistance in adoption from the wider population.  

[Rolta]

2 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I think the pronoun stuff is one where we could just create a new word. For example German language has always had male/female/neutral for their grammar. Der/Die/Das

We should just create a new neutral word for adoption for people who would like to use gender neutral pronouns. Seems the most pragmatic and logical way and would meet less resistance in adoption from the wider population.  

They/them already gender neutral when used in certain contexts. It seems in a way an obvious choice, but it is a bit awkward to get used to. Anyway, even as I type this I start realising that this is technically off topic. 

Quote

nominative singular pronoun:

1. (used to refer to a generic or unspecified person previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context):

Whoever is of voting age, whether they are interested in politics or not, should vote.

A person may enlist only if they are over 18.

2. (used to refer to a specific or known person previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context):

The victim refused to testify at the trial because they feared for their life.

My best friend from high school is famous now—too bad we didn’t stay in touch after they moved to California.

 

[maqroll]

6 hours ago, Rolta said:

Anyway, even as I type this I start realising that this is technically off topic. 

I like it when things overlap, it's interesting. Language is inherently sociopolitical. 

[MakemineVanilla]

The question is whether pronouns can be dispensed with in certain circumstances?

It used to be considered rude to use a pronoun in the presence of the subject, and would often provoke a sharp response, such as, "Who's she, the bloody cat's mother?"

So it could be presumed that when the subject is present, that their name would be preferable to a pronoun.

Therefore, a pronoun should only be used when the subject is not present, as they are not there to be offended.