Transgenderism

[VILLAMARV]

On 27/02/2023 at 22:35, StefanAVFC said:

**** me. Dreadful all round. 

It's stuff like this being fanned in the way it was that fuels my scepticism of the world according to media.

I think it's a ridiculous thing to have gotten the attention it did whether it's fabricated or not. Which I personally think it is.

I just think there's a reason and that reason is as simple as knocking the Brianna Ghey story off the top of the trans feed on news aggregator websites etc. off the front page if you will.

[VILLAMARV]

On 28/02/2023 at 01:04, Eidolon said:

Demonizing trans women isn't even really about us, we are the thin end of the wedge, something weird enough to most people that a large enough number of otherwise ordinary people who just don't know much about us can be convinced of pretty much any vile thing they hear.
You can really see how it spreads amongst the people who get sucked into it, it starts with believing deliberate falsehoods about Trans people being groomers or making spaces unsafe and the next thing you know they are anti LGBTQI+ in any sense and start eventually attacking reproductive rights and women's liberation. It all stems from radical conservative evangelical Christians and unfortunately the women who are doing a large amount of the heavy work for them are next in their crosshairs.

Also on topic, I'm reasonably well acquainted with Sophie from twitter and I'd be more likely to believe my own mother would have said something like that honestly.

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"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit attrocities." - Voltaire

 

[juanpabloangel18]

On 14/02/2023 at 10:02, StefanAVFC said:

That second one is a banger

[CVByrne]

All people should be free of discrimination, all people should be allowed to live their lives however they choose as long as they don't harm others. No decent human being would harass another person for being different. 

As I've stated before in this thread, my views on this topic relate specifically to children and their wellbeing. Firstly, do I believe some children are born with dysphoria and are born in the wrong body. Yes. For those children they The issue is unfortunately we can't scientifically test for this as we can for many other medical issues. The second is that the latest science cannot ascribe the nature (ie genetic) and nurture (environment) elements at play. For example, in a pair of identical twins where one of them is gay, there is a 52% chance that the other identical twin is gay. Why this is, has not been explained scientifically yet, but the clear conclusion is it's not 100% down to genetics. Also identical twins are raised in incredibly common environment. Genetic factors have been proven but the environmental factors haven't been.

This can be extended to the human population as a whole. Your genes will make up a huge amount about who you are, but not all. There is a lot of study on how your personality develops from your experiences as a young child as your brain and body develop. Which is going to be hugely impacted by your parents. 

So this creates this huge gap in what parents should be doing with their kids. Parents with the best intentions could be believing their child is transgender and socially transitioning the child at a young age which could cause more harm than good if they're wrong. Obviously vice versa if a child is trans and they are being forced into the gender assumed from their birth sex it can also do a lot of harm. Further more, actually raising kids requires you teaching them, you as parents mould who your children will become. This requires you to in effect tell your children who to be.

There isn't enough reliable scientific information on this. For example, what if a child is born gay. This would surely increase the chances of mis diagnosing the child as trans. So I think we need to extricate the politics from the medical science (if that is even possible). We all know human history is full of evolving science and treatments. So to me, right now things like puberty blockers and surgery to children shouldn't be allowed. This in effect trades off suffering of legitimately trans children from those who would be misdiagnosed as trans. I feel like 16 should be minimum age for hormone therapy with parental consent. 

As stated earlier once someone is 18 it is fully their choice. We have chosen this age as the legal age where people are allowed to choose their lives themselves. This is despite early 20s being the age when the body and brain finish development. 

[TheAuthority]

9 hours ago, CVByrne said:

For example, what if a child is born gay. This would surely increase the chances of mis diagnosing the child as trans.

As this is the basis for you entire argument about barring young trans kids from medical help and support, can you please show your working out here.

How exactly does someone being gay increase the chances of being mis-diagnosed as trans?

[chrisp65]

A child that has consistently said they are in the wrong body from the age of, say, 5 shouldn’t be getting a diagnosis or offered the start of counselling or treatment in case another child somewhere else is mis diagnosed? Allow the start of hormone therapies potentially years after puberty? Remove the politics by making all treatments illegal under the age of 16? Teach your kids to be straight or gay?

That sounds a bit like we’re going to draw a line under our current knowledge, admit we’re still on a learning curve, but pack it all in rather than continuing to learn.

We can teach kids to be decent humans, we can teach them love, or respect, or empathy, or criminality and alcoholism. We can’t teach them to be cis or trans.

I’m not sure that’s how we make progress.

[VILLAMARV]

Think of the children but don't listen to them?

[Chindie]

42 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

As this is the basis for you entire argument about barring young trans kids from medical help and support, can you please show your working out here.

How exactly does someone being gay increase the chances of being mis-diagnosed as trans?

There's a theory amongst some gay and lesbian thinkers that transgender people are often just homosexual people that are convinced by medical professionals they are actually in the wrong body, and not that they are actually just butch lesbians or feminine gay men for instance. Essentially they view transgenderism as a threat to homosexuality itself, and depending on the distance down the rabbit hole they've gone, that the growth of trans diagnosises is part of an effort to eradicate it.

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

As this is the basis for you entire argument about barring young trans kids from medical help and support, can you please show your working out here.

How exactly does someone being gay increase the chances of being mis-diagnosed as trans?

First of all quoting one sentence of my entire argument doesn't mean it's the "basis" for my entire argument. This is a deliberate attempt to condense a well written argument down to a single item with which you can focus your disagreement. 

Secondly the genes identified which predisposed a person to same sex attraction and those to transgender are only markers. Only markers. Environmental factors as in, non genetic, are as important. What this means is a diagnosis is inherently difficult. At what point do the environmental factors cease to be formative? We simply don't know.

We simply have a lack of data as to the accuracy of these diagnosis over time statistically. While we are building data on the damage puberty blockers can do to children. What we need is data, we ideally need to track the diagnosis through age groups through to adulthood. 

Unfortunately what this means right now is transgender children who's quality of life would be improved by medical transition at an early age won't get that treatment due to damage an early transition of a misdiagnosed child would have.  

I wish we had a method of diagnosis which was 99.99% accurate. I do have faith in the medical systems in UK and Europe to base their treatment on the evolving science. 

[CVByrne]

2 hours ago, Chindie said:

There's a theory amongst some gay and lesbian thinkers that transgender people are often just homosexual people that are convinced by medical professionals they are actually in the wrong body, and not that they are actually just butch lesbians or feminine gay men for instance. Essentially they view transgenderism as a threat to homosexuality itself, and depending on the distance down the rabbit hole they've gone, that the growth of trans diagnosises is part of an effort to eradicate it.

This theory that all transgender people are just gay people convinced they're in the wrong body by medical professionals is almost certainty incorrect. 

But when it comes to diagnosing children the issue here comes from a lack of any medical need to diagnose development of same sex attraction at a young age. Humans develop sexual attraction around age of puberty. 

So again lack of data issue. Essentially how do we know how to diagnose that a young child would develop into an effininate gay man or would be a transwoman. Apparently the data is inconclusive on this and as such recommended treatment is non invasive until late teens or adulthood in majority of Europe. 

 

 

[CVByrne]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

A child that has consistently said they are in the wrong body from the age of, say, 5 shouldn’t be getting a diagnosis or offered the start of counselling or treatment in case another child somewhere else is mis diagnosed? 

Nobody has said that in the current conversation at all.

Of course children should be treated, of course they should be diagnosed, of course counselling. Treatment including social transition. 

It's the invasive treatment with use of puberty blockers, surgery or hormones which should not be used on children.

 

[Enda]

A trans person murdered six people in a school in Tennessee.

I am sure innocent trans people will suffer because of this.

(May the deceased rest in peace.)

[TheAuthority]

4 hours ago, CVByrne said:

First of all quoting one sentence of my entire argument doesn't mean it's the "basis" for my entire argument. This is a deliberate attempt to condense a well written argument down to a single item with which you can focus your disagreement. 

 

Ok I'll quote your whole paragraph. I really don't need to try and point score on the transgender sub-forum of VT which is what you're implying.

You begin your paragraph stating that if a child was born gay it would surely increase the chances of the child being "mis-diagnosed" as trans. First of all, a doctor can't diagnose someone as trans just like a doctor can't diagnose someone as gay. I asked you to explain this which you haven't.

17 hours ago, CVByrne said:

There isn't enough reliable scientific information on this. For example, what if a child is born gay. This would surely increase the chances of mis diagnosing the child as trans. So I think we need to extricate the politics from the medical science (if that is even possible). We all know human history is full of evolving science and treatments. So to me, right now things like puberty blockers and surgery to children shouldn't be allowed. This in effect trades off suffering of legitimately trans children from those who would be misdiagnosed as trans. I feel like 16 should be minimum age for hormone therapy with parental consent. 

As stated earlier once someone is 18 it is fully their choice. We have chosen this age as the legal age where people are allowed to choose their lives themselves. This is despite early 20s being the age when the body and brain finish development. 

Thanks to @Chindie for posting some insight as to where you might be coming from?

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This is a deliberate attempt to condense a well written argument...

I mean, really? You have a pretty high opinion of your writing style and your argument - which I'm just asking you to clarify.

[TheAuthority]

Very interesting 40 minute interview primarily with a journalist who researched the facility but also some doctors who worked at Tavistock Clinic.

Opened in 1989, Tavistock was the UK's first and only Gender identity clinic. It has been condemned by an independent report recently and the NHS is  going to close it down. Well worth a listen.

One of the most interesting points for me was that this clinic found an uptick in females experiencing gender dysphoria after puberty. This was not found or looked at in the original Dutch studies upon which most the Western medical treatment of gender dysphoria is based.

Overall it seems to support the argument that @CVByrneis making. (Or at least the one I think he is trying to make.)

Anyway, well worth a listen for anyone who is interested in the subject and the link also contains a transcript for those stuck somewhere they can't listen.

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/03/09/the-inside-story-of-the-collapse-of-the-tavistock-gender-service-for-children

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The United Kingdom’s only dedicated gender identity clinic opened nearly 35 years ago.

 

Until this past year, the Tavistock Gender Identity Development Service was the U.K.'s only center for treating children suffering from gender dysphoria. In March 2022, an independent report commissioned by Britain's National Health Service found that the type of care provided at Tavistock was, quote, 'Not safe or viable as a long-term option for the care of young people with gender related distress.' It also found that the center had not used customary control measures that are typically in place when new treatments are introduced. Nor had the center collected consistent data on its patients and treatments.

Following the report, the National Health Service decided to close the Tavistock Center and find a new model of care for gender questioning young people. Hannah Barnes is an investigations producer at Newsnight, one of the BBC's flagship television news programs, and she writes about what happened at Tavistock in her new book, Time to Think: The Inside Story of the Collapse of the Tavistock's Gender Service for Children. 

 

[CVByrne]

@TheAuthority If you just read my posts. Chindie posted a theory he ascribes to some members of the Gay community. A theory I don't agree with at all as I stated.

7 hours ago, CVByrne said:

This theory that all transgender people are just gay people convinced they're in the wrong body by medical professionals is almost certainty incorrect. 

But when it comes to diagnosing children the issue here comes from a lack of any medical need to diagnose development of same sex attraction at a young age. Humans develop sexual attraction around age of puberty. 

So again lack of data issue. Essentially how do we know how to diagnose that a young child would develop into an effeminate gay man or would be a transwoman. Apparently the data is inconclusive on this and as such recommended treatment is non invasive until late teens or adulthood in majority of Europe. 

My issue is simply down the the fact we lack data. Thus misdiagnosis is a legitimate worry when we know there is long term damage cause by interventionist treatment (like puberty blockers) in such a case. 

The data required is to help the children and collect data on accuracy of diagnosis at a young age which persists throughout to early adulthood. This way we can measure, how many of the current diagnosis prove accurate over the period, how many were misdiagnosed and developed same sex attraction, how many were misdiagnosed and presented with mental illness and finally how many recovered from.

Key for me is the intervention that was being proposed while a child vs the intervention the patient chose when they made their choice in late teen or adulthood. As stated in Europe this is driven by the medical profession and I fully trust the studies will improve treatment.

 

[tomav84]

7 hours ago, Enda said:

A trans person murdered six people in a school in Tennessee.

I am sure innocent trans people will suffer because of this.

(May the deceased rest in peace.)

they mentioned it like 5 times in the BBC report i just watched despite it being totally irrelivant to the story

[sharkyvilla]

10 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

they mentioned it like 5 times in the BBC report i just watched despite it being totally irrelivant to the story

I can imagine a Catholic school being hell for a young trans kid, especially in America.  That resentment is probably a motive in this.  I bet the gun nuts won't be so against tighter gun control laws in the case of trans people, adding another gaping hole in their argument.

[chrisp65]

9 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Nobody has said that in the current conversation at all.

Of course children should be treated, of course they should be diagnosed, of course counselling. Treatment including social transition. 

It's the invasive treatment with use of puberty blockers, surgery or hormones which should not be used on children.

 

But that ‘wait until after puberty’ blanket decision will be devastating for some people. Not all, but a blanket decision, one size fits all, no meds until you are 4 or 5 years through puberty will damage some people.

I think we are at a very early stage of medically understanding this, and I think cutting off some options to explore can’t help expand our knowledge. Limit access to meds, make it a tighter more regulated regime. I could see that being an argument. From there keep reviewing the data and see if that has helped or hindered the situation. That’s got to be better. A flat no to medical intervention is no better a solution than an automatic yes.

[MakemineVanilla]

Transgenderism does seem like the predictable consequences of post-war existentialism, where the individual believes they have an 'authentic' self they need to discover.

The thinking on the subject does seem to follow on from Heidegger's concept of "thrownness" (Geworfenheit).

Atheism is the necessary starting point, as if there is no omniscient Creator and only the random interaction of genes, according to the theory, might create a mismatch between body and temperament.

The argument against the genetic basis of transgenderism, would be to ask the question, why these genes have not been eliminated due to the fact that the individuals would surely be less likely to reproduce and pass on those genes.

We are told that most female ancestors passed on their genes and most males did NOT, and yet most of those who transition are male to female.

Sociological causes may include the decline of the traditional male role in the division of labour, and the lessening of its importance to the economy; other causes might be the increasing monetisation of healthcare, which leads to over-diagnosis due to the profit motive.

Politicians lack the courage to deal with the resulting issues about minors and no doubt when the damage has been done and regretted, the issue will be decided and established in court by tort.

 

[juanpabloangel18]

1 hour ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Transgenderism does seem like the predictable consequences of post-war existentialism, where the individual believes they have an 'authentic' self they need to discover.

The thinking on the subject does seem to follow on from Heidegger's concept of "thrownness" (Geworfenheit).

Atheism is the necessary starting point, as if there is no omniscient Creator and only the random interaction of genes, according to the theory, might create a mismatch between body and temperament.

The argument against the genetic basis of transgenderism, would be to ask the question, why these genes have not been eliminated due to the fact that the individuals would surely be less likely to reproduce and pass on those genes.

We are told that most female ancestors passed on their genes and most males did NOT, and yet most of those who transition are male to female.

Sociological causes may include the decline of the traditional male role in the division of labour, and the lessening of its importance to the economy; other causes might be the increasing monetisation of healthcare, which leads to over-diagnosis due to the profit motive.

Politicians lack the courage to deal with the resulting issues about minors and no doubt when the damage has been done and regretted, the issue will be decided and established in court by tort.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

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Transgender people (including non-binary and third gender people) have existed in cultures worldwide since ancient times. The modern terms and meanings of "transgender", "gender", "gender identity", and "gender role" only emerged in the 1950s and 1960s.

Roman emperor Elagabalus (d. 222 AD) preferred to be called a lady (rather than a lord) and sought sex reassignment surgery.

And when people talk about an upswing in trans-identified people, show them this: