Transgenderism

[LondonLax]

55 minutes ago, juanpabloangel18 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

And when people talk about an upswing in trans-identified people, show them this:

People finally feel safe enough to tell the world. 

My grandfather was one of those statistics who was forced to be right handed when he started school. 

[mjmooney]

59 minutes ago, juanpabloangel18 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history

And when people talk about an upswing in trans-identified people, show them this:

I assume that most of the pre-1940 southpaws didn't count in the stats, as they had it beaten out of them at school. 

Much in the way that homosexuality was 'rarer' in The Good Old Days. 

[CVByrne]

6 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

But that ‘wait until after puberty’ blanket decision will be devastating for some people. Not all, but a blanket decision, one size fits all, no meds until you are 4 or 5 years through puberty will damage some people.

I think we are at a very early stage of medically understanding this, and I think cutting off some options to explore can’t help expand our knowledge. Limit access to meds, make it a tighter more regulated regime. I could see that being an argument. From there keep reviewing the data and see if that has helped or hindered the situation. That’s got to be better. A flat no to medical intervention is no better a solution than an automatic yes.

Yes, unfortunately it will be devastating to some children going though puberty would worsen their mental health. However there is the flip side to that on giving puberty blockers to children who we misdiagnose or who have non persistent dysphoria. Also the data on the long term medical impact of puberty blockers is still not fully known. I believe in Netherlands they do still allow puberty blockers but only in extreme cases. I do agree with you, I think the solution is probably not a flat no in some (very small number) of the cases.

[CVByrne]

4 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Transgenderism does seem like the predictable consequences of post-war existentialism, where the individual believes they have an 'authentic' self they need to discover.

The thinking on the subject does seem to follow on from Heidegger's concept of "thrownness" (Geworfenheit).

Atheism is the necessary starting point, as if there is no omniscient Creator and only the random interaction of genes, according to the theory, might create a mismatch between body and temperament.

The argument against the genetic basis of transgenderism, would be to ask the question, why these genes have not been eliminated due to the fact that the individuals would surely be less likely to reproduce and pass on those genes.

We are told that most female ancestors passed on their genes and most males did NOT, and yet most of those who transition are male to female.

Sociological causes may include the decline of the traditional male role in the division of labour, and the lessening of its importance to the economy; other causes might be the increasing monetisation of healthcare, which leads to over-diagnosis due to the profit motive.

Politicians lack the courage to deal with the resulting issues about minors and no doubt when the damage has been done and regretted, the issue will be decided and established in court by tort.

 

I find this part fascinating. The evolutionary biology of it. It seems that the "current thinking" is that as males are essentially a mutatation from female (XX to XY). The specific genes that ensure males can co-operate and engage with females in order to get a mate are essentially feminine genes. So if a male has the right amount of these they increase reproduction chance in the population. Too few and they are too aggressive and cannot exist in a group/tribe and thus are denied mates. Too much and it leads to same sex attraction (and possibly transgenderism). So these genes start from one end to the other and the "sweet spot" is close to the boundary line which predisposes same sex attraction. This is why it's naturally occurring and not a a hereditary mutation which by natural selection would be bred out over time. (this in part explains the 4 to 1 incidence in same sex attraction in males to females)

[bickster]

6 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Transgenderism does seem like the predictable consequences of post-war existentialism, where the individual believes they have an 'authentic' self they need to discover.

I only read that sentence. I hope the rest wasn't as crackpot as that one

[blandy]

3 hours ago, mjmooney said:

assume that most of the pre-1940 southpaws didn't count in the stats, as they had it beaten out of them at school.

It was a sinister plot, adroitly handled.

[mjmooney]

Just now, blandy said:

It was a sinister plot

True story: I once worked with a bloke called Dexter Wright. I used to wonder if he was secretly an agent of the sinister left. 

[VILLAMARV]

Heraldry jokes I need to mooney because I don't understand just made my return to VT somehow feel more authentic.

Thanks gents that's my thing learned for today.

[Delphinho123]

Transgenderism is just one of those topics the silent majority steers clear of. No point getting in to trouble talking about it. 

[VILLAMARV]

I get that kids are sometimes stupid and often don't know what they are talking about. Hell, MrsVM told me that when she was a kid she wanted to be a pig when she grew up. Rolling around in mud all day seemed like a good future to 8 year old MrsVM. But I just really struggle with the notion that I, or any of us, know better than the individuals themselves.

I was well aware of my gender and my sexual preference before my teens. Why do people doubt this issue so much? Perhaps kids should not pick a football team until they are adults when they can make an adult decision about it? It's utterly bizarre gatekeeping of medical help. I just really struggle to understand the motives behind it. Unless it's just dislike of 'the other' of course. I understand that.

What are the medical issues with treatment exactly? Genuine question it's hardly an area of expertise for me. We give kids all sorts of medicines with all sorts of side effects. What makes this one different in people's eyes?

[VILLAMARV]

20 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

Transgenderism is just one of those topics the silent majority steers clear of. No point getting in to trouble talking about it. 

Perhaps on a forum. In the real world people are often all to quick to offer their opinion. Unless it's positive of course.

[Delphinho123]

5 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

I get that kids are sometimes stupid and often don't know what they are talking about. Hell, MrsVM told me that when she was a kid she wanted to be a pig when she grew up. Rolling around in mud all day seemed like a good future to 8 year old MrsVM. But I just really struggle with the notion that I, or any of us, know better than the individuals themselves.

I was well aware of my gender and my sexual preference before my teens. Why do people doubt this issue so much? Perhaps kids should not pick a football team until they are adults when they can make an adult decision about it? It's utterly bizarre gatekeeping of medical help. I just really struggle to understand the motives behind it. Unless it's just dislike of 'the other' of course. I understand that.

What are the medical issues with treatment exactly? Genuine question it's hardly an area of expertise for me. We give kids all sorts of medicines with all sorts of side effects. What makes this one different in people's eyes?

Madness if you’re implying what I think you are. Dangerous.

[VILLAMARV]

1 minute ago, Delphinho123 said:

Madness if you’re implying what I think you are. Dangerous.

What do you think I'm implying?

I tend not to imply stuff I don't say. I like direct communication.

[Panto_Villan]

13 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

I get that kids are sometimes stupid and often don't know what they are talking about. Hell, MrsVM told me that when she was a kid she wanted to be a pig when she grew up. Rolling around in mud all day seemed like a good future to 8 year old MrsVM. But I just really struggle with the notion that I, or any of us, know better than the individuals themselves.

I was well aware of my gender and my sexual preference before my teens. Why do people doubt this issue so much? Perhaps kids should not pick a football team until they are adults when they can make an adult decision about it? It's utterly bizarre gatekeeping of medical help. I just really struggle to understand the motives behind it. Unless it's just dislike of 'the other' of course. I understand that.

What are the medical issues with treatment exactly? Genuine question it's hardly an area of expertise for me. We give kids all sorts of medicines with all sorts of side effects. What makes this one different in people's eyes?

There's pretty serious medical and social issues with the treatment if you start to transition and then decide to stop - e.g. I'm sure you can imagine what might happen to a woman's body if they took testosterone for a year, or oestrogen for a male. Sterility is another potential issue too.

It's pretty weird you think everyone shares exactly the same life experiences as you. You may have known your sexuality before your teens, but do you think that's true for everyone in the world? Of course it isn't, and I don't know why you're claiming it's "bizarre gatekeeping" to acknowledge that.

[VILLAMARV]

Just now, Panto_Villan said:

It's pretty weird you think everyone shares exactly the same life experiences as you.

Eh?

[Delphinho123]

1 minute ago, Panto_Villan said:

There's pretty serious medical and social issues with the treatment if you start to transition and then decide to stop - e.g. I'm sure you can imagine what might happen to a woman's body if they took testosterone for a year, or oestrogen for a male. Sterility is another potential issue too.

It's pretty weird you think everyone shares exactly the same life experiences as you. You may have known your sexuality before your teens, but do you think that's true for everyone in the world? Of course it isn't, and I don't know why you're claiming it's "bizarre gatekeeping" to acknowledge that.

It was a bonkers post. A little disturbing to be honest. 

[Panto_Villan]

Just now, VILLAMARV said:

Eh?

"I was well aware of my gender and my sexual preference before my teens. Why do people doubt this issue so much?"

If I've misinterpreted that, feel free to correct me. But to me there's no other way to read this than "this wasn't an issue for me, so it can't be an issue for anyone else".

[VILLAMARV]

1 minute ago, Panto_Villan said:

"I was well aware of my gender and my sexual preference before my teens. Why do people doubt this issue so much?"

If I've misinterpreted that, feel free to correct me. But to me there's no other way to read this than "this wasn't an issue for me, so it can't be an issue for anyone else".

You have indeed misinterpreted that.

Posters have suggested we should wait until everyone is 18 until they receive medical treatment based on (as far as I can see) the idea that some people may regret their decision for a myriad of different ways. If people doubted my ability at 16 say to pronounce my gender and/or sexuality with authority I would find that utterly bizarre. Why do people doubt what other people feel? based solely on age?

[Panto_Villan]

Just now, VILLAMARV said:

You have indeed misinterpreted that.

Posters have suggested we should wait until everyone is 18 until they receive medical treatment based on (as far as I can see) the idea that some people may regret their decision for a myriad of different ways. If people doubted my ability at 16 say to pronounce my gender and/or sexuality with authority I would find that utterly bizarre. Why do people doubt what other people feel? based solely on age?

I'm sure you're aware of endless numbers of gay people who didn't fully come to terms with their sexuality until their twenties or later, though? It's a complex thing for people to navigate. I think that alone should give you pause for thought here.

You've also got to consider that not everyone who wants to transition is dispassionately assessing the risks and effect on their lives. Autism is hugely overrepresented in the trans community, with research suggesting up to 25% of trans people are on the spectrum. Puberty is just a difficult time for a lot of people. Lots of teenagers struggle with depression or other mental issues. I remember all sorts of weird kids in sixth form who in retrospect were clearly struggling in various ways. There was one attention-seeking kid who decided he was gay but infamously changed his mind about that five seconds into his first sexual experience with another man. There were plenty of kids who thought it was cool to cut themselves. Lots of people (myself included) did stupid things trying to show off to seem cool.

So if you were a level-headed teenager who had a pretty good sense of yourself then that's great, but you're not really the type of person that these controls are trying to protect. Teenagers frequently make terrible, immature decisions and these drugs can have life-changing consequences. There's real consent issues around heavily autistic people too (particularly if they are also minors).

I'm not sure if I think totally banning hormone therapy for under 18s is necessary, but I do think the drugs need to be tightly restricted.

 

[CVByrne]

49 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

You have indeed misinterpreted that.

Posters have suggested we should wait until everyone is 18 until they receive medical treatment based on (as far as I can see) the idea that some people may regret their decision for a myriad of different ways. If people doubted my ability at 16 say to pronounce my gender and/or sexuality with authority I would find that utterly bizarre. Why do people doubt what other people feel? based solely on age?

Actually what was discussed (if you wanted to read the posts) was invasive medical treatment on children. Specifically puberty blockers. Puberty begins in children aged 10-11yo.