Transgenderism

[bickster]

53 minutes ago, TreeVillan said:

I totally agree with you, as do the majority of reasonable Brits. 

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

[Demitri_C]

47 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

She could however be held as an example as to why trans women cannot be held in a women’s prison. Where do you say no they have to be incarcerated with men. At the point they change their clothes, when they are on hormone medication, if post op, is it complete, part way through? Forgetting about this case for a moment, where is the line drawn?

There shouldnt be  a line in this instance. He commited the crime as a man therefore no matter what happens after he stays in a mans prison. I think unless they have transgender prisons (not gonna happen lets be honest unless we get rapid huge numbers of trans criminals) then you should go prison on the gender you was recognised as at birth

[Davkaus]

I think what I find troubling is the idea that obviously we need this person to go to a male prison to avoid sex attacks. What about cis women who sexually abuse other women. What about men who rape other men?

Seems to me that the genitals are neither here nor there and the real problem is the acceptance that the prison system isn't perceived as being adequately resourced to prevent sex attacks on inmates.

[Seat68]

5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

There shouldnt be  a line in this instance. He commited the crime as a man therefore no matter what happens after he stays in a mans prison. I think unless they have transgender prisons (not gonna happen lets be honest unless we get rapid huge numbers of trans criminals) then you should go prison on the gender you was recognised as at birth

I get what you are saying but it’s a little more complex than that, do you feel a woman would be safe in a men’s prison? Regardless of crime if you do not recognise a trans woman as a woman, or vice versa then we will never meet on this but if you do, you must appreciate that it would not be a safe environment for that prisoner. 

[jim]

5 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I think what I find troubling is the idea that obviously we need this person to go to a male prison to avoid sex attacks. What about cis women who sexually abuse other women. What about men who rape other men?

Seems to me that the genitals are neither here nor there and the real problem is the acceptance that the prison system isn't perceived as being adequately resourced to prevent sex attacks on inmates.

The same reason there are mens and women’s prisons.

In this case, this is a bloke in a dress. they’ve had no hormone treatment or operations.

Edit, didn’t read the last sentence properly. Yes there is a huge issue for inmate safety regardless of sex in the prison system.

Edited January 26, 2023 by jim

[desensitized43]

3 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I think what I find troubling is the idea that obviously we need this person to go to a male prison to avoid sex attacks. What about cis women who sexually abuse other women. What about men who rape other men?

Seems to me that the genitals are neither here nor there and the real problem is the acceptance that the prison system isn't perceived as being adequately resourced to prevent sex attacks on inmates.

This person has a history of sexual violence against women. That’s why he needs to be elsewhere. You wouldn’t stick a peadophile in a school. You can’t put a two time rapist in a women’s jail.

Thats not saying all trans women are predators. If this persons crime was driving under the influence I don’t think we’d be having this discussion.

I think if you were looking at making the prison system less violent that’s very much fantasyland. You’ve locked a bunch of violent people in a building together you can’t expect all of them to get along.

[Seat68]

Vicki Thompson

Quote

“I know I’m going to do something silly. I don’t want to but I can’t do this,” wrote Vikki Thompson, the 21-year-old transgender woman found dead in a male prison in 2015.

Transgender woman at male prison did not mean to kill herself, jury finds

Her partner of four years, Robert Steele, had phoned HMP Leeds to warn staff that Vikki was vulnerable. Like many young trans people, she had a history of abuse, self-harm and addiction, and had been raped by a family friend when she was 12. Last week the jury at her inquest found that her treatment in Leeds prison was inadequate, and lacked professionalism. She had told prison staff she would “leave in a box”. She also suffered multiple incidents of sexual harassment, transphobic abuse and bullying inside.

 

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

I get what you are saying but it’s a little more complex than that, do you feel a woman would be safe in a men’s prison? Regardless of crime if you do not recognise a trans woman as a woman, or vice versa then we will never meet on this but if you do, you must appreciate that it would not be a safe environment for that prisoner. 

But who is more likely to be more at harm? A trans woman going into a womans prison or going into a mans prison? For me its going into a womans hospital. The women wouldnt be safe at all.

In this case the only person likely to get hurt is  the rapist. Dont think many people will have sympathy for her afyee what she did as a man.

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I think what I find troubling is the idea that obviously we need this person to go to a male prison to avoid sex attacks

I don't. A person, born a man, with a history of sex attacks on women, who still retains their m&2v and male hormone balance, should not be placed in a women's prison. Saying "I'm a woman" does not make them, in these circs, a woman.

[Seat68]

My point is the case in Scotland should not be the measure for all trans prisoners and as it’s grabbing headlines it has potential to be. 

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, Seat68 said:

Vicki Thompson

 

That sounds more like terrible treatment of the prison than whether she was in a man or womens prison tbh mate

[Davkaus]

16 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

This person has a history of sexual violence against women. That’s why he needs to be elsewhere. You wouldn’t stick a peadophile in a school. You can’t put a two time rapist in a women’s jail.

 

But we put men who rape men into a male prison?

If a prisoner is considered such a threat to other prisoners, they need to be isolated from them regardless of their sex.

[blandy]

13 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

If a prisoner is considered such a threat to other prisoners, they need to be isolated from them regardless of their sex.

Agree with the first part, but not the second. I'd say "If a prisoner is considered such a threat to other prisoners, they need to be isolated from them AND account be taken of their sex in deciding where they are imprisoned".

[chrisp65]

Half a story, to get a sensational reaction.

The prisoner was held in Seg until it was decided where they would be put. The decision was a male prison.

Transgender prisoners have no automatic right in Scotland to dictate what prison they go to.

It really doesn’t take much of a google to see this was a none story. But I guess that’s not quite as exciting.

[Risso]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

But we put men who rape men into a male prison?

If a prisoner is considered such a threat to other prisoners, they need to be isolated from them regardless of their sex.

Prisons aren't perfect, far from it. But men on the whole are much stronger and more powerful than women, so on average he'd be much more of a danger to female prisoners and staff than he would be to male prisoners and staff. There's a reason that inmates are grouped together according to the crimes they commit, so for example all the violent nutters go in a category A facility together. You wouldn't put an armed robber (male) or a rapist in a category D open prison, and you certainly wouldn't/shouldn't put them in a women's prison. Not only does it just violate all common sense, but in my opinion it also does the trans rights movement no good whatsoever. 99% of trans people cause no issues whatsoever in how they choose to live their lives, but examples like this give people the chance to point the finger and go "See!"

[TreeVillan]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

You need evidence that the average Brit would be unhappy with men having access to strictly female areas based solely on their word that they became a woman 5 minutes before? 

[foreveryoung]

It's a geezer dressed as a woman, no arguments there.

[Johnnyp]

I’d like to be educated on this if my post seems a bit excessive but i think it’s valid giving the current landscape. The pronoun thing is gathering pace. Is it totally implausible to think that in future that a paedophile would rape a child, identify himself/herself as a child and then has a ready made defense in court ? I’m not been sensationalist here but….

[sharkyvilla]

3 minutes ago, Johnnyp said:

I’d like to be educated on this if my post seems a bit excessive but i think it’s valid giving the current landscape. The pronoun thing is gathering pace. Is it totally implausible to think that in future that a paedophile would rape a child, identify himself/herself as a child and then has a ready made defense in court ? I’m not been sensationalist here but….

It would still be illegal to have underage sex wouldn't it?

[Eidolon]

I don’t post here any more largely because of what some of the people who have posted in this thread clearly believe about me and people like me but it’s a bit hard to hold my tongue when a bunch of you are advocating for sentencing largely (not exclusively but largely) non violent offenders literally to lives of carceral rape in male prisons.

You throw a woman, trans or otherwise into a male prison population you are essentially guaranteeing they will be assaulted frequently and studies bare this out. The vast majority of incarcerated trans women are in prison for sex work and non violent drug offences and pose a significantly lower risk to a women’s prison population than they would face in any facility with men. Regardless of what you believe about us or not surely this seems disproportionate to you?