Transgenderism

[chrisp65]

3 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

Is this true though? Where is the evidence for it? I understand the immediate fears. I thought as much myself, but when you look into it and listen to people conducting research into the issue, and read articles from the researchers, the current evidence points to the contrary.

I think there’s something of a knee jerk reaction that all men are bigger and stronger than all women.

But we aren’t dealing with ‘all’, we aren’t dealing with a cross section or what’s typical. We are dealing with a really specific small sub set, where there MTF athletes are competing against… athletes. It will vary from sport to sport what level of advantage you might get at what stage.

As you say, the actual research I’ve looked at suggests its far from a cut and dried answer.

 

Meanwhile people see a picture of a previously male frame in a tight swimsuit and jump to a quick conclusion that covers all possible scenarios because quick partially informed opinions are easy.

[TheAuthority]

Hey has @Eidolon been around ? Haven't seen any posts recently.

You doing ok?

[StefanAVFC]

Sharron Davies might have a legit point with her concerns about a level playing field in sports and women's right.

This though...

is just spiteful and transphobic.

[chrisp65]

Her strap line on her twitter account includes Proud Brit. Biology Believer.

 

 

[TreeVillan]

Good for her.

[Seat68]

17 minutes ago, TreeVillan said:

Good for her.

For who? What has she done?

[TreeVillan]

18 hours ago, Seat68 said:

For who? What has she done?

She can put what she likes in her bio. Just like you can with your pronouns.

[chrisp65]

18 minutes ago, TreeVillan said:

She can put what she likes in her bio. Just like you can with your pronouns.

Yes, she absolutely can. People have already said that. She can have whatever views within the bounds of legality and she can make them publicly known. As can anyone.

Playing the victim card that randoms and bots from anywhere on the planet on social media have then been mean to you, that’s the lame bit.

Having a view that might not sit well with your sponsor or employer, that’s also fine. Not liking the potential consequences of losing your sponsor or employer their target market, that’s tough.

Personally, I’m glad she had proud Brit, biology believer in her bio. It makes things quicker and easier for me.

 

[Panto_Villan]

On 05/08/2022 at 07:59, sparrow1988 said:

Is this true though? Where is the evidence for it? I understand the immediate fears. I thought as much myself, but when you look into it and listen to people conducting research into the issue, and read articles from the researchers, the current evidence points to the contrary.

Does it? Because when I’ve looked into it the intuitive conclusion appears to be supported by the evidence - that even in sports where height and larger skeletal size doesn’t count for anything, hormone suppressants get nowhere near cancelling out the strength and endurance advantages gained during puberty.

Google throws up this result, for example (quote at bottom): https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

There’s a number of sports where this might not matter much (archery, diving), a number of sports where it’s likely to be unfair (e.g. weightlifting or cycling) and there’s also quite a few sports where it’s likely to be downright dangerous (contact sports like rugby).

The principle that trans athletes should just be treated exactly like women on the sporting pitch until enough people get seriously injured or it becomes undeniably farcical is a pretty irresponsible one imo, and the people trying to smear anyone that thinks otherwise as transphobic don’t do the cause any favours (that’s a general comment, not aimed at anyone specific on here).

“We report that the performance gap between males and females becomes significant at puberty and often amounts to 10–50% depending on sport. The performance gap is more pronounced in sporting activities relying on muscle mass and explosive strength, particularly in the upper body. Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.”

[blandy]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Playing the victim card that randoms and bots from anywhere on the planet on social media have then been mean to you, that’s the lame bit....

Personally, I’m glad she had proud Brit, biology believer in her bio. It makes things quicker and easier for me.

I don't see it as "lame" to be the victim of internet and/or real life abuse, nor do I see it as "playing the victim card". To me that's not right.

Any lines such as "she brought it on herself by voicing her opinion..." is a bit like "well she shouldn't have worn a short skirt and low cut top if she didn't want to be groped" - I mean it's victim blaming, and effectively saying "people who view biological sex as the determinant (as opposed to gender).." should just shut up and keep their views to themselves. They're not my views, but I don't think it's helpful to handle it the way it is being handled.

The second thing is that there's a cause and effect in terms of someone puts out an opinion, one which is perhaps against the kind of more tolerant social norm, they get attacked and trolled and such like, and then this leads them in turn to become more settled on their opinion, more strident - not through persuasion, not through discussion and thought, but because the people with the opposite view, or a section of them, are aggressively horrible to the person - it's really bizzare that people who want more kindness and better treatment for trans people have a group amongst them who are particularly nasty and portray a great deal of intolerance and aggression to women who view things differently to themselves. How do you possible win a debate for more tolerance and fair treatment for trans people by being utterly vile towards (perhaps) the group of people who most, potentially, could be on your side?

[fruitvilla]

22 minutes ago, blandy said:

Any lines such as "she brought it on herself by voicing her opinion..." is a bit like "well she shouldn't have worn a short skirt and low cut top if she didn't want to be groped" - I mean it's victim blaming, and effectively saying "people who view biological sex as the determinant (as opposed to gender).." should just shut up and keep their views to themselves. They're not my views, but I don't think it's helpful to handle it the way it is being handled.

Well said ... I wish I expressed it that way!

23 minutes ago, blandy said:

The second thing is that there's a cause and effect in terms of someone puts out an opinion, one which is perhaps against the kind of more tolerant social norm, they get attacked and trolled and such like, and then this leads them in turn to become more settled on their opinion, more strident - not through persuasion, not through discussion and thought, but because the people with the opposite view, or a section of them, are aggressively horrible to the person - it's really bizzare that people who want more kindness and better treatment for trans people have a group amongst them who are particularly nasty and portray a great deal of intolerance and aggression to women who view things differently to themselves.

God that is a long sentence.  Generally agree.

I read a headline in New Scientist a while back a study suggesting empathetic people tend to be less tolerant. I am wondering if that is what we are seeing here. Our empathy for the perceived underdog is overcoming our tolerance.

[Seat68]

But Sharon Davies is just being a dick. She isn't commenting she is punching down. It's quite clear. She is entitled to her opinions but this steps out of that. I thought it looked fairly clear. 

[fruitvilla]

3 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

But Sharon Davies is just being a dick

Definition of "being a dick": someone expressing an opinion strongly contrary to one's own?

[Seat68]

7 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

Definition of "being a dick": someone expressing an opinion strongly contrary to one's own?

Did you read the tweet? It's up there. That's not expressing an opinion. 

[fruitvilla]

21 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

Did you read the tweet? It's up there. That's not expressing an opinion. 

Yes I did. The thought that went through my mind was: what are the rates for lightning strikes on trans men and women? Is what she is trying to say accurate?

Edited August 7, 2022 by fruitvilla
lightning

[Seat68]

Just now, fruitvilla said:

Yes I did. The thought that went through my mind was: what are the rates for lightening strikes on trans men and women? Is what she is trying to say accurate?

That's the overriding message. Time for me to butt out of this site for a while, my tolerance is getting as low as an Olympic swimmer. 

[blandy]

20 minutes ago, Seat68 said:

That's not expressing an opinion

To me Pete, it’s expressing a view that biological sex determines, for her, whether a person is a woman or not. And as I wrote above, I perceive (perhaps wrongly) that being threatened, insulted and abused by some people who disagree with her has perhaps led her to post that kind of “what about men who call themselves women” type of dig? Like I say, not a viewpoint I share, but there’s no exchange of nuance or persuasion or perspective in all this stuff. It’s sad.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, blandy said:

I don't see it as "lame" to be the victim of internet and/or real life abuse, nor do I see it as "playing the victim card". To me that's not right.

Any lines such as "she brought it on herself by voicing her opinion..." is a bit like "well she shouldn't have worn a short skirt and low cut top if she didn't want to be groped" - I mean it's victim blaming, and effectively saying "people who view biological sex as the determinant (as opposed to gender).." should just shut up and keep their views to themselves. They're not my views, but I don't think it's helpful to handle it the way it is being handled.

The second thing is that there's a cause and effect in terms of someone puts out an opinion, one which is perhaps against the kind of more tolerant social norm, they get attacked and trolled and such like, and then this leads them in turn to become more settled on their opinion, more strident - not through persuasion, not through discussion and thought, but because the people with the opposite view, or a section of them, are aggressively horrible to the person - it's really bizzare that people who want more kindness and better treatment for trans people have a group amongst them who are particularly nasty and portray a great deal of intolerance and aggression to women who view things differently to themselves. How do you possible win a debate for more tolerance and fair treatment for trans people by being utterly vile towards (perhaps) the group of people who most, potentially, could be on your side?

 

I cannot accept there is a comparison to be drawn between actual physical assault, and not turning off the responses on your twitter account.

Remember, you can tweek your social media to block people, prevent responses, only allow responses from people you follow etc..

If you don’t like or want responses, you can stop them with two clicks. To not do that, and then have issues with the responses you receive from randoms is a bit precious.

Absolutely not on the same planet as suggesting sexual assault victims need to be careful what they wear. I usually grudgingly accept your counter points, but I’m not having that one.

 

[foreveryoung]

45 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I cannot accept there is a comparison to be drawn between actual physical assault, and not turning off the responses on your twitter account.

Remember, you can tweek your social media to block people, prevent responses, only allow responses from people you follow etc..

If you don’t like or want responses, you can stop them with two clicks. To not do that, and then have issues with the responses you receive from randoms is a bit precious.

Absolutely not on the same planet as suggesting sexual assault victims need to be careful what they wear. I usually grudgingly accept your counter points, but I’m not having that one.

 

I said this and got jumped on. Why do people who get abused on twitter, facebook not just mute, just have message from there followers or low and behold, jump out of it for a while. You can't have it both ways, all the praise and non of the bullsh**, it just don't work that way on social media. I'm not saying abuse on social media is right, I'm just a realist knowing it ain't gonna change or be stopped anytime soon.

It should never get to a stage were it's destroying your life, the argument could be, that the user is not helping them self.

Edited August 7, 2022 by foreveryoung

[fruitvilla]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

Why do people who get abused on twitter, ... 

Why aren't there consequences for people who do abuse?