Transgenderism

[foreveryoung]

12 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

Why aren't there consequences for people who do abuse? 

 

There are, of they get found. But for now as unfortunate as it is, we have to do our bit to avoid it.

[fruitvilla]

2 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

But for now as unfortunate as it is, we have to do our bit to avoid it.

By not expressing our opinion?

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, fruitvilla said:

By not expressing our opinion?

By not moaning about it, when you can avoid it.

[fruitvilla]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

when you can avoid it

Avoid expressing your opinion?

[foreveryoung]

6 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

Avoid expressing your opinion?

Avoid reading everyday that your a shit footballer, or your ugly and fat, or your just a tw**.

Mute it, just allow your followers to message, or come off social media. Don't let it dictate your life or how you feel. 

[bickster]

8 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

Avoid expressing your opinion?

It's like you repeated the question without actually reading the responses about how twitter works.

[Demitri_C]

9 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

Avoid reading everyday that your a shit footballer, or your ugly and fat, or your just a tw**.

Mute it, just allow your followers to message, or come off social media. Don't let it dictate your life or how you feel. 

Id just disable comments i think if i was famous 

[blandy]

12 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I cannot accept there is a comparison to be drawn between actual physical assault, and not turning off the responses on your twitter account....

Absolutely not on the same planet as suggesting sexual assault victims need to be careful what they wear. I usually grudgingly accept your counter points, but I’m not having that one.

To be clear the "a bit like" refers to the victim blaming, not the offence.

[chrisp65]

…and that’s how I read it. Clearly we are poles apart on this one.

 

[CVByrne]

I made this point elsewhere and I see it made in here too. Everything is becoming so polarised. We always have known there are bigots and racists in the world who will be abusive and often violent to others. What is more worrying is that we have this militant side to discourse everywhere now. So let say a person thinks and says on twitter they believe the legal age for sexual reassignment surgery in UK should be set at 18 for example, the same way it is in Denmark or The Netherlands. You know that tweet would be jumped on by a trans rights activist berating that person for it. We would expect such behaviour from the bigots and racists and far right trolls but is it really helping the dialogue from supposed activists? I think it's only making things worse, fighting fire with fire type approach rather than rising above it. 

I think civilised discussion on topics with an acceptance of people having different opinions on things might be the better approach. Some elements of Activism I feel really are antagonising people who would be more receptive if a different approach was used. 

 

[chrisp65]

25 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I made this point elsewhere and I see it made in here too. Everything is becoming so polarised. We always have known there are bigots and racists in the world who will be abusive and often violent to others. What is more worrying is that we have this militant side to discourse everywhere now. So let say a person thinks and says on twitter they believe the legal age for sexual reassignment surgery in UK should be set at 18 for example, the same way it is in Denmark or The Netherlands. You know that tweet would be jumped on by a trans rights activist berating that person for it. We would expect such behaviour from the bigots and racists and far right trolls but is it really helping the dialogue from supposed activists? I think it's only making things worse, fighting fire with fire type approach rather than rising above it. 

I think civilised discussion on topics with an acceptance of people having different opinions on things might be the better approach. Some elements of Activism I feel really are antagonising people who would be more receptive if a different approach was used. 

 

 

I absolutely agree with the sentiment. But I’d also take it back one step, to before your person on twitter publicises their thinking.

What if you had known since your child was 4 years old that they were in the wrong body. If your child had been telling you so ever since they could string sentences together. Then, perhaps, seeing somebody that hasn’t lived the experience airing their thoughts on twitter is indeed going to look like they are provoking you with their uninformed thoughts and beliefs.

That they are suggesting you cannot start a process until you are an adult, and that process will then take years, when you have already known what you are for pretty much all of you conscious life. Well, that can be a bit upsetting. That is the confrontation.

Perhaps, if the person thinking out loud on twitter had some science and some lived experience to contribute, not just their beliefs then yes, perhaps that could constructively add to the discourse.

Perhaps the person that believes trans people are denying biology, are sports cheats, and are fair game for jokes, is actually the one that is victim blaming? 

 

 

[blandy]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

What if you had known since your child was 4 years old that they were in the wrong body. If your child had been telling you so ever since they could string sentences together. Then, perhaps, seeing somebody that hasn’t lived the experience airing their thoughts on twitter is indeed going to look like they are provoking you with their uninformed thoughts and beliefs.

That they are suggesting you cannot start a process until you are an adult, and that process will then take years, when you have already known what you are for pretty much all of you conscious life. Well, that can be a bit upsetting. That is the confrontation.

Perhaps, if the person thinking out loud on twitter had some science and some lived experience to contribute, not just their beliefs then yes, perhaps that could constructively add to the discourse.

Perhaps the person that believes trans people are denying biology, are sports cheats, and are fair game for jokes, is actually the one that is victim blaming? 

This is similar to what I posted a day or two ago, in many regards, and I'm sure others have said similar longer ago than that.

The caveat I'd add is that for the likes of us straight men, who have never experienced what these souls have on either side, for me at least it's less about taking sides and more about trying to understand that kind of thing (you described), but also the perspective of those like JKR, SD and so on. Because they don't (until I see evidence otherwise) appear to have any hate or antipathy behind what they're saying. For me victims are (any) people subjected to abuse or discrimination or etc. not simply people holding a particular set of views.

I know there's more to it than this simplification, but SD was deprived of medals by testosterone doped East German swimmers. JKR was domestically abused by a man and their experiences of life are bound to form part of their thinking. JKR seems to be concerned about the potential (and reality) of predatory males using Trans identification to attack women and SD appears to (at least to start with) have been objecting to swimming rules which were loosened in 2016 to allow a much wider field of competitors into women's swimming (it's since reversed that and she said that they were right to do so). Both those women have been subjected to campaigns of abuse for holding their views, as well as a lot of very patient and reasoned discussion and counter argument. It's the abuse part that I find troubling. The trans situation is clearly very, very heated and the people most harmed, perhaps are the ones who already get a rough deal - mainly young folk like you describe - caught in the crossfire between two sides who's struggle to maintain any level of reasoned exchange of views between their more ardent adherents.

[lapal_fan]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I absolutely agree with the sentiment. But I’d also take it back one step, to before your person on twitter publicises their thinking.

What if you had known since your child was 4 years old that they were in the wrong body. If your child had been telling you so ever since they could string sentences together. Then, perhaps, seeing somebody that hasn’t lived the experience airing their thoughts on twitter is indeed going to look like they are provoking you with their uninformed thoughts and beliefs.

That they are suggesting you cannot start a process until you are an adult, and that process will then take years, when you have already known what you are for pretty much all of you conscious life. Well, that can be a bit upsetting. That is the confrontation.

Perhaps, if the person thinking out loud on twitter had some science and some lived experience to contribute, not just their beliefs then yes, perhaps that could constructively add to the discourse.

Perhaps the person that believes trans people are denying biology, are sports cheats, and are fair game for jokes, is actually the one that is victim blaming? 

 

 

How certain of anything can a 4 year old be? 

At what age would starting the process be morally, ethically, politically correct?

I've got a 7 year old and a 3 year old.  My 3 year old thinks he's a train or a plane half the time, my 7 year old wants to marry his mate from school.. 

How would a young person convey "properly" that, that's how they felt - as a serious proposition? 

How old should they be before parents start acknowledging this? 

My gut says.. fantasy and funny thoughts go through any youth's mind.. Puberty seems absolutely key to me, but again.. a 10/11 year old?  My Niece is 11 and again.. I wouldn't be able to acknowledge such a life changing proposition from someone who really could just be "going through a phase".. 

I know that sounds shitty, and I suppose these issues are a such a deep rooted level, and having no experience of living with or through it means I'm no authority on the matter.

[CVByrne]

52 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I absolutely agree with the sentiment. But I’d also take it back one step, to before your person on twitter publicises their thinking.

What if you had known since your child was 4 years old that they were in the wrong body. If your child had been telling you so ever since they could string sentences together. Then, perhaps, seeing somebody that hasn’t lived the experience airing their thoughts on twitter is indeed going to look like they are provoking you with their uninformed thoughts and beliefs.

That they are suggesting you cannot start a process until you are an adult, and that process will then take years, when you have already known what you are for pretty much all of you conscious life. Well, that can be a bit upsetting. That is the confrontation.

Perhaps, if the person thinking out loud on twitter had some science and some lived experience to contribute, not just their beliefs then yes, perhaps that could constructively add to the discourse.

Perhaps the person that believes trans people are denying biology, are sports cheats, and are fair game for jokes, is actually the one that is victim blaming? 

In your example of a kid, how do we know all kids who say they are in the wrong body will always feel that way? It is inevitable that misdiagnosis will happen to a proportion of people. So what is to be debated is how many misdiagnosis with the subsequent surgeries should we accept vs the suffering of those who are denied surgery until they are 18. 

Like most things in society we are not dealing with certainties. What we do know is a person is a combination of nature and nurture to what degree we will never know. If we accept the nature aspect of a person is the unchangeable part. How do we know who a person will truly turn out to be until they've gone through their growth phase. 

You can fully be of the view a grown adult should be able to make any life decisions or decisions about their body as long as they don't harm others. It's when we get to the current expert thinking on subjects in conjunction with children it's a bit less clear as we've seen from the past how understanding changes over time. Lets just take something simple like circumcision and how medical field has changed over time on that. If we decide something for a kid now, who knows in 15 years what the treatment for the exact same child would have been and we're discussing incredibly invasive surgeries. 

You also say, people should go off and study science and lived experiences. Why is this the go to response? Why can't people discuss things and become educated via the discussion? Surely people don't need to become experts on a subject before they can speak? 

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Surely people don't need to become experts on a subject before they can speak? 

Agreed. Though self awareness of our lack of expertise isn’t something that’s as widespread as it would ideally be.

[bannedfromHandV]

Anyone else find it curious that there are significantly more men transitioning to women than the reverse? 

Edited August 8, 2022 by bannedfromHandV

[StefanAVFC]

52 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Anyone else find it curious that there are significantly more me transitioning to women than the reverse? 

I’m not sure that’s the case. 
 

men to women is always more high profile due to the alleged eroding of rights. Certainly a noisier ‘thing’. 
 

I also think it’s easier for a women to pass as a man than vice versa so a few (many) may go under the radar. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by StefanAVFC

[bannedfromHandV]

58 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I’m not sure that’s the case. 
 

men to women is always more high profile due to the alleged eroding of rights. Certainly a noisier ‘thing’. 
 

I also think it’s easier for a women to pass as a man than vice versa so a few (many) may go under the radar. 

There’s data out there that seems to indicate a much higher number of men seeking to transition than women, as you say though, could be an issue in the data/reporting rather than it being the actual case.

Although whenever there is a focus on trans issues, you tend to be presented with far more MTF than FTM.

There‘s probably nothing in it, but it’s just something that’s intrigued me.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

How certain of anything can a 4 year old be? 

At what age would starting the process be morally, ethically, politically correct?

I've got a 7 year old and a 3 year old.  My 3 year old thinks he's a train or a plane half the time, my 7 year old wants to marry his mate from school.. 

How would a young person convey "properly" that, that's how they felt - as a serious proposition? 

How old should they be before parents start acknowledging this? 

My gut says.. fantasy and funny thoughts go through any youth's mind.. Puberty seems absolutely key to me, but again.. a 10/11 year old?  My Niece is 11 and again.. I wouldn't be able to acknowledge such a life changing proposition from someone who really could just be "going through a phase".. 

I know that sounds shitty, and I suppose these issues are a such a deep rooted level, and having no experience of living with or through it means I'm no authority on the matter.

A 4 year old can’t be certain of anything.

But what if at the age of 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 and 13 and 14 there is the same consistent message at all times? Do you wait until 16 to do something about it? At the moment, that’s the law.

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

In your example of a kid, how do we know all kids who say they are in the wrong body will always feel that way? It is inevitable that misdiagnosis will happen to a proportion of people. So what is to be debated is how many misdiagnosis with the subsequent surgeries should we accept vs the suffering of those who are denied surgery until they are 18. 

Like most things in society we are not dealing with certainties. What we do know is a person is a combination of nature and nurture to what degree we will never know. If we accept the nature aspect of a person is the unchangeable part. How do we know who a person will truly turn out to be until they've gone through their growth phase. 

You can fully be of the view a grown adult should be able to make any life decisions or decisions about their body as long as they don't harm others. It's when we get to the current expert thinking on subjects in conjunction with children it's a bit less clear as we've seen from the past how understanding changes over time. Lets just take something simple like circumcision and how medical field has changed over time on that. If we decide something for a kid now, who knows in 15 years what the treatment for the exact same child would have been and we're discussing incredibly invasive surgeries. 

You also say, people should go off and study science and lived experiences. Why is this the go to response? Why can't people discuss things and become educated via the discussion? Surely people don't need to become experts on a subject before they can speak? 

I’m not suggesting any one policy will fit all. Quite the opposite, I’m suggesting having strict age limits on treatments or even consultations for treatments might not be the best for everyone.

I absolutely agree that you can’t be sure. Nobody can ever be 100% sure of anything. But here’s the rub, what if you have always known all your conscious life that you were in the wrong body. Always, just your earliest memories were the confusion that there was some sort of mistake being played out. But, for a decade or more, for 12 years potentially you are not allowed to do anything about it. So you go through puberty in the wrong sex, when blockers could have prevented that.

Then, theoretically, with all that baggage behind you, having not legally been allowed medication until after puberty, you are then the subject of accusations of cheating at sport from a BBC sports reporter with 150,000 social media followers. 

That would be upsetting? But don’t hit back at the celebrity denying your dysphoria, don’t retaliate to the glib jokes, or the accusations of cheating or possibly just being a pervert, of someone in denial of ‘biology’. Don’t do that, that would be bullying or trolling. Don’t even comment on others hitting back at the celebrity. That could be victim blaming.

That would mess with your head, wouldn’t it?

I’m not suggesting people need to be experts before they chime in. Just maybe don’t presume everyone is like you, maybe listen for a while before gifting the world your opinions. Maybe don’t be glib, or rude, then moan if others don’t treat you with respect.

2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Anyone else find it curious that there are significantly more men transitioning to women than the reverse? 

I have no idea what the numbers are, I suspect you’re right. Although I base that only on what we see in the media.

What I do know, anecdotally from my only limited social bubble, is that I know four trans people. By know, I mean that I would count as friends, that I would know there first name, they know mine, and we’ve been for a coffee or to the theatre, or the football. Only one of those four is male to female.

However, the male to female does stand out as more crudely ‘obvious’. Now, this might in part be down to not having puberty blockers at an early enough age? That’s a guess on my part.

[CVByrne]

44 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

A 4 year old can’t be certain of anything.

But what if at the age of 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 and 13 and 14 there is the same consistent message at all times? Do you wait until 16 to do something about it? At the moment, that’s the law.

I’m not suggesting any one policy will fit all. Quite the opposite, I’m suggesting having strict age limits on treatments or even consultations for treatments might not be the best for everyone.

I absolutely agree that you can’t be sure. Nobody can ever be 100% sure of anything. But here’s the rub, what if you have always known all your conscious life that you were in the wrong body. Always, just your earliest memories were the confusion that there was some sort of mistake being played out. But, for a decade or more, for 12 years potentially you are not allowed to do anything about it. So you go through puberty in the wrong sex, when blockers could have prevented that.

Then, theoretically, with all that baggage behind you, having not legally been allowed medication until after puberty, you are then the subject of accusations of cheating at sport from a BBC sports reporter with 150,000 social media followers. 

That would be upsetting? But don’t hit back at the celebrity denying your dysphoria, don’t retaliate to the glib jokes, or the accusations of cheating or possibly just being a pervert, of someone in denial of ‘biology’. Don’t do that, that would be bullying or trolling. Don’t even comment on others hitting back at the celebrity. That could be victim blaming.

That would mess with your head, wouldn’t it?

No offence, but who gives a shit about sport? The welfare of the people who suffer from Gender Dysphoria and what is right in relation to children and treatment, consequences of treatment at a young age vs post puberty and the mental health issue that would have etc.. All of that trump what small % of trans people go on to be elite sports people, frankly I don't really care much about that. It's a fraction of a fraction of people and overall it's rather meaningless in the grand scheme of things. It's just sport. 

But as we're on that topic, I can see the arguments on both sides have merit. It is inherently unfair to exclude a trans athlete from competing when unlike actual drug cheats they're not living their lives to gain a competitive advantage in a sport. They're just being who they are. While on the flip side having gone through male puberty can give a trans athlete an advantage vs cis gender woman. I don't know what the answer to the problem is. It's a really difficult one.