Manager or the Squad

[DCJonah]

I've nailed my colours to the mast. I don't think Smith is doing a good job but for me the squad is the major issue we have faced all year and especially now. 

I thought i'd look at some of the players for our rivals who have played the majority of games for them to compare. I have no idea of formations and have just selected names based on appearances. 

West Ham

 

Pablo Fornals 24, M(CLR)

Mark Noble 33, M(C)

Sébastien Haller 26, FW

Aaron Cresswell 30, D(CL),M(L)

Issa Diop 23, D(C)

Angelo Ogbonna 32, D(C)

Felipe Anderson 27, M(CLR),FW

Robert Snodgrass 32, AM(CLR)

Ryan Fredericks 27, D(R),M(R)

Manuel Lanzini 27, AM(CLR)

Lukasz Fabianski 35, GK

Michail Antonio 30, D(R),M(CLR),FW

 

Watford

 

Abdoulaye Doucouré 27, M(C)

Craig Cathcart 31, D(CR)

Gerard Deulofeu 26, AM(LR),FW

Etienne Capoue 31, D(C),M(CL)

Roberto Pereyra 29, M(CLR),FW

Will Hughes 25, M(CR)

Craig Dawson 30, D(CR)

Kiko Femenía 29, D(LR),M(R)

Ismaila Sarr 22, AM(LR),FW

Andre Gray 29, FW

 

Christian Kabasele 29, D(C)

Troy Deeney 32, FW

Adam Masina 26, D(L),M(L)

Nathaniel Chalobah 25, DMC

Adrian Mariappa 33, D(CR)

José Holebas 36, D(L),M(L)

 

Bournemouth

 

Callum Wilson 28, FW

Philip Billing 24, DMC

Ryan Fraser 26, M(CLR)

Dominic Solanke 22, FW

Jefferson Lerma 25, D(R),DMC

Harry Wilson 23, AM(CLR)

Nathan Aké 25, D(CL),DMC

Steve Cook 29, D(C)

Lewis Cook 23, M(CL)

Diego Rico 27, D(L),M(L)

Adam Smith 29, D(LR),M(R)

Joshua King 28, AM(CLR),FW

 

Now realistically, how many of our players would start regular games for our rivals?

Jack 100% walks into any of those teams. Mings, maybe? Bournemouth weren't interested in keeping him but while he hasn't been amazing, Mings probably would start most games for them. 

Is there anyone else? Maybe peak Mcginn but I'm not sure his performances throughout the year would see him in all the time. Current Luiz maybe but certainly not most of the season. 

For me, this is why I can't turn on Smith, because while he isn't doing a great job and is clearly struggling, the quality of our players are so inferior compared to our rivals, I can't realistically demand we should be doing better than them all. 

[sne]

As a newly promoted side we needed either some of the players to perform over expectations or the team as a unit to do so and be more than the sum of all parts. We have neither.

For me that's down to both the players and the manager.

[sidcow]

I don't think our recruitment was anywhere near good enough.  That said we were better and have got worse so both, but mainly for me the players are just not good enough for this level. 

We way overpaid on most of them too. 

[sidcow]

Also the lack of PL experience in our recruitment was criminal. 

[Laughable Chimp]

Edit:Nvm, I **** up the transfermarkt best 11.

 

 

Edit: If we go by whoscored, its

                                     Ramsdale

Guilbert        Kabasele       Hause          Rico

                                    Mcginn

Antonio                     Grealish                 Anderson         

                           Haller     Deeney

Edited June 29, 2020 by Laughable Chimp

[jim]

It's both but if the manager was doing a good job we'd have 5 or 6 more points.

We've seen on a few occasions when we've got it right the we can play some lovely stuff and get results, and it's why I believe when we played those lesser teams we could and should have got more points and wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a gun like we are now.

[MotoMkali]

40 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Edit:Nvm, I **** up the transfermarkt best 11.

 

 

Edit: If we go by whoscored, its

                                     Ramsdale

Guilbert        Kabasele       Hause          Rico

                                    Mcginn

Antonio                     Grealish                 Anderson         

                           Haller     Deeney

I mean I would only take 3 or 4 players from the other teams (from each team) over what we have in the first place. I think overall we actually have the better team than all the others but west ham and that's only because Heaton and Wesley are injured and mcginn isn't fully fit. I genuinely think we are closer to the level of Soton or Newcastle when we are fully fit. I think Smith isn't getting the best out of our players. We are static, too narrow (especially defensively), slow, passive, not smart with out fouls and he plays mcginn out of position. 

There were faults with our recruitment especially our left back and Trez. But mostly we did quite well we just lack some serious pace to make us a threat on the counter which would make us much better defensively as teams wouldn't be able to apply as much pressure. 

[Mjvilla]

51 minutes ago, jim said:

It's both but if the manager was doing a good job we'd have 5 or 6 more points.

We've seen on a few occasions when we've got it right the we can play some lovely stuff and get results, and it's why I believe when we played those lesser teams we could and should have got more points and wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a gun like we are now.

I wouldn't disagree with this. But, consistency comes with experience and players being comfortable with their surroundings. Plus, players who have played together more than a fair chunk of the squad being thrown together at the start of the season. I'm not surprised we've struggled with consistency and had off performances, even against the lesser teams. 

The fact you said 'lesser' teams despite the majority being established premier league teams who have had relative (compared to us) settled squads for the last few years says alot to me.

[villa4europe]

squad for me

I think confidence after around 10 games was gone, playing luiz and nakamba together in the middle was ridiculous, the shit thing being now that luiz looks brilliant and full of confidence, if he'd been like that all season then we would be in a better position 

we just needed that experienced head in the middle of the park, a Gareth Barry type character, don't think we would have dropped as many points or had this bullshit conceding 2 goals in 3 minutes that's killing us

[hippo]

I think Lambert kept us up with a lesser squad.

 

[sharkyvilla]

I think it was the squad last season that was the problem.  It meant we had to do far too much in the summer.

[hippo]

3 hours ago, DCJonah said:

I've nailed my colours to the mast. I don't think Smith is doing a good job but for me the squad is the major issue we have faced all year and especially now. 

I thought i'd look at some of the players for our rivals who have played the majority of games for them to compare. I have no idea of formations and have just selected names based on appearances. 

West Ham

 

Pablo Fornals 24, M(CLR)

Mark Noble 33, M(C)

Sébastien Haller 26, FW

Aaron Cresswell 30, D(CL),M(L)

Issa Diop 23, D(C)

Angelo Ogbonna 32, D(C)

Felipe Anderson 27, M(CLR),FW

Robert Snodgrass 32, AM(CLR)

Ryan Fredericks 27, D(R),M(R)

Manuel Lanzini 27, AM(CLR)

Lukasz Fabianski 35, GK

Michail Antonio 30, D(R),M(CLR),FW

 

Watford

 

Abdoulaye Doucouré 27, M(C)

Craig Cathcart 31, D(CR)

Gerard Deulofeu 26, AM(LR),FW

Etienne Capoue 31, D(C),M(CL)

Roberto Pereyra 29, M(CLR),FW

Will Hughes 25, M(CR)

Craig Dawson 30, D(CR)

Kiko Femenía 29, D(LR),M(R)

Ismaila Sarr 22, AM(LR),FW

Andre Gray 29, FW

 

Christian Kabasele 29, D(C)

Troy Deeney 32, FW

Adam Masina 26, D(L),M(L)

Nathaniel Chalobah 25, DMC

Adrian Mariappa 33, D(CR)

José Holebas 36, D(L),M(L)

 

Bournemouth

 

Callum Wilson 28, FW

Philip Billing 24, DMC

Ryan Fraser 26, M(CLR)

Dominic Solanke 22, FW

Jefferson Lerma 25, D(R),DMC

Harry Wilson 23, AM(CLR)

Nathan Aké 25, D(CL),DMC

Steve Cook 29, D(C)

Lewis Cook 23, M(CL)

Diego Rico 27, D(L),M(L)

Adam Smith 29, D(LR),M(R)

Joshua King 28, AM(CLR),FW

 

Now realistically, how many of our players would start regular games for our rivals?

Jack 100% walks into any of those teams. Mings, maybe? Bournemouth weren't interested in keeping him but while he hasn't been amazing, Mings probably would start most games for them. 

Is there anyone else? Maybe peak Mcginn but I'm not sure his performances throughout the year would see him in all the time. Current Luiz maybe but certainly not most of the season. 

For me, this is why I can't turn on Smith, because while he isn't doing a great job and is clearly struggling, the quality of our players are so inferior compared to our rivals, I can't realistically demand we should be doing better than them all. 

But last season we had an abundance of riches in the championship - and finished 5th.

Brentford look to have thrived post Smith.

Recruitment hasn't been great - I still think a better manager would have kept us in the division though.

[Chindie]

Both.

The squad isn't very good. We had to do a massive overhaul, and had limited money to do it. So ended with the perfect storm of a huge number of new faces most of which were also new to the league and had to be bought on the basis of value in the main. As a result we've ended up with a flawed squad with gaping holes (the striker situation was a disaster in waiting so obvious someone must get sacked over it). But...

It's the managers job to work with that squad and get the best out of it. And he hasn't. We've had so many clueless performances. So many times where we've simply not created anything. So many times where it's obvious that the defence has something wrong with it. Set pieces at both ends we've been diabolical at. 

Perhaps most damning though. We barely look arsed. And we do the same shit over and over and over... It's appalling.

Smith's a nice bloke and he's been given a bloody hard hand to play with. But his job is to play that hand, and play it to the best of its ability. And I don't think he has. I've nothing against Smith. I didn't think we'd stay up this year. Had we shown a good fight from game to game, developed as a side, shown improvement in flawed areas, etc etc, I wouldn't want Smith to go when we're relegated. But we haven't done that, we've been crap in various ways all season and we look broken. He's not getting more out of these players. We just stumble from game to game looking like we're lost with occasional 5 mins bursts where we realise we're in a dogfight and need some bollocks. And it's not like this a new thing either. Last season we looked shit pretty often, and it was only with a completely unheard of run of form together with a squad that had 2 midfielders far too good for the league and a striker that was the best in the league and a defender too good for it as well that we managed to scrape promotion.

Like I said, I like Smith. He's a good bloke, he has a lot to like about him, he cares about the club and he's a good man by all accounts. He's been dealt a bad hand. But he's not done well with it, and he's not shown anything for my money that says his job should be safe. Better management does better with this side. Wouldn't necessarily mean we'd survive, but I'd expect more of a fight and more to be brought out of the squad.

Smith shouldn't be managing us next season.

[sir_gary_cahill]

I think Smith has done a fine job considering the squad we had at the end of the season, it is worth remembering it is his first season managing us in the Premier League. If we finish 17th, this season will be a rip roaring success with us getting to the Carabao Cup final too. If the worst happens and we get relegated, at least we will have the local derbies again. I’m trying to put a positive slant on things here

[Dodgyknees]

It's a bit of both.

[TRO]

21 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Both.

The squad isn't very good. We had to do a massive overhaul, and had limited money to do it. So ended with the perfect storm of a huge number of new faces most of which were also new to the league and had to be bought on the basis of value in the main. As a result we've ended up with a flawed squad with gaping holes (the striker situation was a disaster in waiting so obvious someone must get sacked over it). But...

It's the managers job to work with that squad and get the best out of it. And he hasn't. We've had so many clueless performances. So many times where we've simply not created anything. So many times where it's obvious that the defence has something wrong with it. Set pieces at both ends we've been diabolical at. 

Perhaps most damning though. We barely look arsed. And we do the same shit over and over and over... It's appalling.

Smith's a nice bloke and he's been given a bloody hard hand to play with. But his job is to play that hand, and play it to the best of its ability. And I don't think he has. I've nothing against Smith. I didn't think we'd stay up this year. Had we shown a good fight from game to game, developed as a side, shown improvement in flawed areas, etc etc, I wouldn't want Smith to go when we're relegated. But we haven't done that, we've been crap in various ways all season and we look broken. He's not getting more out of these players. We just stumble from game to game looking like we're lost with occasional 5 mins bursts where we realise we're in a dogfight and need some bollocks. And it's not like this a new thing either. Last season we looked shit pretty often, and it was only with a completely unheard of run of form together with a squad that had 2 midfielders far too good for the league and a striker that was the best in the league and a defender too good for it as well that we managed to scrape promotion.

Like I said, I like Smith. He's a good bloke, he has a lot to like about him, he cares about the club and he's a good man by all accounts. He's been dealt a bad hand. But he's not done well with it, and he's not shown anything for my money that says his job should be safe. Better management does better with this side. Wouldn't necessarily mean we'd survive, but I'd expect more of a fight and more to be brought out of the squad.

Smith shouldn't be managing us next season.

Both.

I couldn't have put it bettter, my sentiments entirely.

Edited June 29, 2020 by TRO

[Nabby]

1 hour ago, hippo said:

I think Lambert kept us up with a lesser squad.

 

I think the difference with Lamberts squad is we had Benteke and even Gabby who could get goals.As bad as our defence has been with a 10-15 goal striker we would be doing better , if Wes had stayed fit we might have had that.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

squad for me

I think confidence after around 10 games was gone, playing luiz and nakamba together in the middle was ridiculous, the shit thing being now that luiz looks brilliant and full of confidence, if he'd been like that all season then we would be in a better position 

we just needed that experienced head in the middle of the park, a Gareth Barry type character, don't think we would have dropped as many points or had this bullshit conceding 2 goals in 3 minutes that's killing us

The squad has its issues for sure, during my time watching football, that issue was always laid at the door of the manager......I don't know how the manager, can't have some responsibility for that.

I don't think Dean is tough enough in his make up, not decisive enough, a drifter more than a driver.......However , I think he is right " The team mirrors the manager" .....its just the gut feeling I get.

Edited June 29, 2020 by TRO

[avfc1982am]

42 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Both.

The squad isn't very good. We had to do a massive overhaul, and had limited money to do it. So ended with the perfect storm of a huge number of new faces most of which were also new to the league and had to be bought on the basis of value in the main. As a result we've ended up with a flawed squad with gaping holes (the striker situation was a disaster in waiting so obvious someone must get sacked over it). But...

It's the managers job to work with that squad and get the best out of it. And he hasn't. We've had so many clueless performances. So many times where we've simply not created anything. So many times where it's obvious that the defence has something wrong with it. Set pieces at both ends we've been diabolical at. 

Perhaps most damning though. We barely look arsed. And we do the same shit over and over and over... It's appalling.

Smith's a nice bloke and he's been given a bloody hard hand to play with. But his job is to play that hand, and play it to the best of its ability. And I don't think he has. I've nothing against Smith. I didn't think we'd stay up this year. Had we shown a good fight from game to game, developed as a side, shown improvement in flawed areas, etc etc, I wouldn't want Smith to go when we're relegated. But we haven't done that, we've been crap in various ways all season and we look broken. He's not getting more out of these players. We just stumble from game to game looking like we're lost with occasional 5 mins bursts where we realise we're in a dogfight and need some bollocks. And it's not like this a new thing either. Last season we looked shit pretty often, and it was only with a completely unheard of run of form together with a squad that had 2 midfielders far too good for the league and a striker that was the best in the league and a defender too good for it as well that we managed to scrape promotion.

Like I said, I like Smith. He's a good bloke, he has a lot to like about him, he cares about the club and he's a good man by all accounts. He's been dealt a bad hand. But he's not done well with it, and he's not shown anything for my money that says his job should be safe. Better management does better with this side. Wouldn't necessarily mean we'd survive, but I'd expect more of a fight and more to be brought out of the squad.

Smith shouldn't be managing us next season.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

When all said and done the manner of the performances reflect only negativity. I haven't looked at many of our performances and thought they're fighting for Smith, Smith is in control, or indeed Smith knows how to right the problems in the team. Smith is less prepared for PL football than many of the players imo. 

[Keyblade]

We needed a few more Heaton type signings. Too many players learning their way around the league at the same time. Not all of them are as good as Jack or Tyrone (both who had some experience anyway).