Manager or the Squad

[Zatman]

10 minutes ago, VillaJ100 said:

In my opinion Watford don't have a relegation squad on paper. I just hope they don't remember that! 

They downed tools on 2 managers to get an English manager. If didn't act like assholes early season they would probably be safe

[VillaFaninLondon]

4 hours ago, Chindie said:

Both.

The squad isn't very good. We had to do a massive overhaul, and had limited money to do it. So ended with the perfect storm of a huge number of new faces most of which were also new to the league and had to be bought on the basis of value in the main. As a result we've ended up with a flawed squad with gaping holes (the striker situation was a disaster in waiting so obvious someone must get sacked over it). But...

It's the managers job to work with that squad and get the best out of it. And he hasn't. We've had so many clueless performances. So many times where we've simply not created anything. So many times where it's obvious that the defence has something wrong with it. Set pieces at both ends we've been diabolical at. 

Perhaps most damning though. We barely look arsed. And we do the same shit over and over and over... It's appalling.

Smith's a nice bloke and he's been given a bloody hard hand to play with. But his job is to play that hand, and play it to the best of its ability. And I don't think he has. I've nothing against Smith. I didn't think we'd stay up this year. Had we shown a good fight from game to game, developed as a side, shown improvement in flawed areas, etc etc, I wouldn't want Smith to go when we're relegated. But we haven't done that, we've been crap in various ways all season and we look broken. He's not getting more out of these players. We just stumble from game to game looking like we're lost with occasional 5 mins bursts where we realise we're in a dogfight and need some bollocks. And it's not like this a new thing either. Last season we looked shit pretty often, and it was only with a completely unheard of run of form together with a squad that had 2 midfielders far too good for the league and a striker that was the best in the league and a defender too good for it as well that we managed to scrape promotion.

Like I said, I like Smith. He's a good bloke, he has a lot to like about him, he cares about the club and he's a good man by all accounts. He's been dealt a bad hand. But he's not done well with it, and he's not shown anything for my money that says his job should be safe. Better management does better with this side. Wouldn't necessarily mean we'd survive, but I'd expect more of a fight and more to be brought out of the squad.

Smith shouldn't be managing us next season.

Good post. I think the point about us developing as a side is very important - we haven't, in fact we've been getting worse week by week since November. And the worst thing is we look so lethargic and ponderous at this stage of the season, with seemingly little motivation and determination, despite the fact that these are a huge fee weeks for the future of this football club. 

 

I've no beef with Dean as a man either, this is nothing personal of course (in fact he seems a very likeable bloke) but I just don't think he is capable of taking this team back to where it needs to be. I sensed that may have been the case when we went on that horrible run with Jack injured last season, but was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt given he did eventually get us promoted. Unfortunately, as much as I'd like to, I just don't see a potential top level manager in there, and no amount of giving him more time will change that.

 

I'm still a little bit cautious, however. We've c*cked up so many managerial appointments before, I don't want to see us doing it again. But we do have owners with the wealth to back our next manager, so I'm hoping that may entice someone of real calibre. I'll also hope the owners think very carefully about the rest of the management team here and whether to replace the likes of Pitarch and Terry, given they don't appear to have done a good job either. 

[VillaFaninLondon]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

Lambert had one of the best strikers in the league. Gabby during the lambert era is better than any striker we currently have. He also had delph who is better than all our current players apart from Jack. 

We'd also been an ever present in the premier league, not spent the previous few years in the championship. No way this squad is better than those. 

Gabby was good in Lambert's first season but other than that was a liability in front of goal, even his pace dried up after a season or 2 because he was getting flabby. He could still be dangerous on occasion but this was not peak Gabby 2008-10 when he was getting into double figures for us. Delph was obviously good but when Lambert first went in he was always injured and nowhere near the player he became. Lambert started getting the best out of Delph and kept him fit. Also Lambert had players in the squad like Bowery, Lichaj, Herd, Baker - all turd footballers. Then regulars like Lowton, Westwood, Weimann - are they really better what we have now? I know Lowton and Westwood have had solid careers at Burnley but they're very average footballers. 

 

I think it's very debatable that Lambert's squad was better than this one. We were buying players from League 1 and 2 back then - and not even the star players in those leagues. The only thing you could argue is the spine was better in that we had Vlaar, Delph, Benteke and the occasional strong performance from Gabby. But it really was a shite squad. 

[Zatman]

5 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

I think it's very debatable that Lambert's squad was better than this one. We were buying players from League 1 and 2 back then - and not even the star players in those leagues. The only thing you could argue is the spine was better in that we had Vlaar, Delph, Benteke and the occasional strong performance from Gabby. But it really was a shite squad. 

This was the Lambert team from the Sunderland 6-1 game. We had Given, Bent and Nzogbia on the bench, all would probably get in our 1st team now 

22

B Guzan

34

M Lowton

4

R Vlaar (c) 

• 31'31st minute

32

N Baker

27

J Bennett

15

A Westwood

16

F Delph

18

Y Sylla

26

A Weimann 

• 38'38th minute

20

C Benteke 

• 55'55th minute
•  
• 59'59th minute
•  
• 72'72nd minute
•  
• 79'79th minute

11

G Agbonlahor 

• 88'88th minute

Substitutes

1

S Given

9

D Bent 

• 79'79th minute

10

C N'Zogbia

14

B Holman

21

J Bowery

25

B Bannan

30

E Lichaj

[Stevo985]

The answer is both

[VillaFaninLondon]

3 minutes ago, Zatman said:

This was the Lambert team from the Sunderland 6-1 game. We had Given, Bent and Nzogbia on the bench, all would probably get in our 1st team now 

22

B Guzan

34

M Lowton

4

R Vlaar (c) 

• 31'31st minute

32

N Baker

27

J Bennett

15

A Westwood

16

F Delph

18

Y Sylla

26

A Weimann 

• 38'38th minute

20

C Benteke 

• 55'55th minute
•  
• 59'59th minute
•  
• 72'72nd minute
•  
• 79'79th minute

11

G Agbonlahor 

• 88'88th minute

Substitutes

1

S Given

9

D Bent 

• 79'79th minute

10

C N'Zogbia

14

B Holman

21

J Bowery

25

B Bannan

30

E Lichaj

Given was the equivalent of Reina now in that he was ageing and past his best, except Reina was better at this peak, so I don't agree with that. Bent I agree was still good at that time, I vaguely remember many supporters clamouring for Lambert to play him (me included) but he didn't want to play both Bent and Benteke. N'Zogbia never reproduced his Wigan form at Villa and actually performed even worse than our current wingers in terms of output (goals and assists), so again I don't agree there. 

 

That team also has atrocious players like Bennett and Sylla in it, we haven't got anyone that bad here now!

 

I'd certainly take Vlaar, Delph and Benteke, and probably Gabby, into our current team. But the majority of the rest of Lambert's squad really were quite bad, and that was because he was signing unheard of players for a pittance most of the time he was here. 

[ciggiesnbeer]

We can change one of these problems today. So its the manager. We can worry about new players once we sort out the manager. Any new manager is going to want to change the squad to fit their philosophy.

[PaulC]

The squad mainly but the manager has to take some responsibility as well. I agree we needed more experience in the squad. We made the same mistake under Sherwood with the signings. Really our recruitment has been woeful again. Mings, Heaton, Luiz good , Wesley ok but the rest not Premier League quality. 

[Tomaszk]

10 minutes ago, PaulC said:

The squad mainly but the manager has to take some responsibility as well. I agree we needed more experience in the squad. We made the same mistake under Sherwood with the signings. Really our recruitment has been woeful again. Mings, Heaton, Luiz good , Wesley ok but the rest not Premier League quality. 

Foreign signings were all fine under Sherwood. Better than fine in fact, good.

Sherwood's experienced selections of Richards and Lescott relegated us. Plus obviously the disastrous management of Tim and others.

I've changed my tune with football recently, it's so easy. The key to success is honestly two steps. Maybe three.

1) Don't but shit players

2) Do buy good players

3) Get a good manager, though this will happen on it's own soon enough as you progress due to having good players and not shit ones

[gwi1890]

58 minutes ago, Zatman said:

This was the Lambert team from the Sunderland 6-1 game. We had Given, Bent and Nzogbia on the bench, all would probably get in our 1st team now 

22

B Guzan

34

M Lowton

4

R Vlaar (c) 

• 31'31st minute

32

N Baker

27

J Bennett

15

A Westwood

16

F Delph

18

Y Sylla

26

A Weimann 

• 38'38th minute

20

C Benteke 

• 55'55th minute
•  
• 59'59th minute
•  
• 72'72nd minute
•  
• 79'79th minute

11

G Agbonlahor 

• 88'88th minute

Substitutes

1

S Given

9

D Bent 

• 79'79th minute

10

C N'Zogbia

14

B Holman

21

J Bowery

25

B Bannan

30

E Lichaj

All the strikers scored, to quote Steve Bruce “You’re only as good as your strikers “

[VillaJ100]

Bennett is the worst professional footballer I've seen play live. 

RE: Lambert and how poor we were, I agree we were poor and had some terrible players. However it's like when you are well established in the prem it takes years and years of circling the drain before you finally go. 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

Given was the equivalent of Reina now in that he was ageing and past his best, except Reina was better at this peak, so I don't agree with that. Bent I agree was still good at that time, I vaguely remember many supporters clamouring for Lambert to play him (me included) but he didn't want to play both Bent and Benteke. N'Zogbia never reproduced his Wigan form at Villa and actually performed even worse than our current wingers in terms of output (goals and assists), so again I don't agree there. 

 

That team also has atrocious players like Bennett and Sylla in it, we haven't got anyone that bad here now!

 

I'd certainly take Vlaar, Delph and Benteke, and probably Gabby, into our current team. But the majority of the rest of Lambert's squad really were quite bad, and that was because he was signing unheard of players for a pittance most of the time he was here. 

Guzan, Lowton, Vlaar, Westwood, Delph, Weimann, Benteke and Gabby would all get into our first XI at the moment. I mean four of them are literally playing regularly for better Premier League teams than us right now.
Probably just bent from that bench I reckon.

That's a far better squad than we have now.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Stevo985

[VillaChris]

3 hours ago, Zatman said:

They downed tools on 2 managers to get an English manager. If didn't act like assholes early season they would probably be safe

Half their squad worked under Sanchez Flores happily enough in his first spell.

I wouldn't say their defence is any great shakes. Foster been relegated twice before from premier league, Dawson went down with WBA etc. Full backs mediocre.

From what I've seen they've really missed Delefoeu, Got injured v Liverpool and since then they've scored 1 goal v Palace, Burnley and Southampton. Him and Sarr either side of Deeney was working a threat.

[VillaChris]

Things would honestly be so much better if we had a Petrov type at the base of the midfield. Someone who dosen't have to be quick but can read the game, is pretty experienced, pass alright and also win cheap free kicks to run down the clock in games we're winning/drawing. When you're in a relegation battle every single potential point counts and it's a scandal the amount we simply threw away in September.

I simply can't believe there wasn't a player in late 20s/early 30s playing somewhere in europe who could've done that job? Remember when Leicester were newly promoted and signed Esteban Cambiasso.

Instead the under 25 policy meant we zoned in on likes of Kalvin Phillips and eventually Nakamba as plan B option once Leeds wanted 30m. We could've still signed Luiz btw who would've learnt so much from the Petrov type midfield signing that never happened.

Same at the back. Likes of Engels and Konsa would come on so much more if they had a real talker at the back. Mings can do it but he seems to have lost a bit of edge as season has gone on.

Fudging those two positions and of course the striker area was really disappointing. Plenty of teams finish 13-16th with mediocre full backs and wide players so those positions to me weren't as essential to get right straight away.

Edited June 29, 2020 by VillaChris

[VillaFaninLondon]

10 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Guzan, Lowton, Vlaar, Westwood, Delph, Weimann, Benteke and Gabby would all get into our first XI at the moment. I mean four of them are literally playing regularly for better Premier League teams than us right now.
Probably just bent from that bench I reckon.

That's a far better squad than we have now.

The only one I'd maybe agree on is Guzan who was good that season. Lowton and Westwood might be performing reasonably at Burnley but that's under a completely different manager with completely different tactics. Put them in our team and they'd look terrible, guaranteed. Weimann worked harder than our current wingers but lacked quality - he's at his peak now and playing in the Championship. I guess at that time Weimann looked like he could make it at PL level - but compare El Ghazi at the same age and he was a regular at Ajax and playing for the Netherlands. 

 

The difference between our current squad and Lambert's was our current squad has been thrown together quickly and Lambert's squad had a top quality striker who we could lump it up to when under pressure and who scored enough goals to keep us up. Put prime Benteke in this current Villa team and we'd be miles better. 

 

I'm not saying our current squad is great, it isn't, but Lambert's squad was poor too bar three or four players. 

[VillaFaninLondon]

11 hours ago, PaulC said:

The squad mainly but the manager has to take some responsibility as well. I agree we needed more experience in the squad. We made the same mistake under Sherwood with the signings. Really our recruitment has been woeful again. Mings, Heaton, Luiz good , Wesley ok but the rest not Premier League quality. 

It's similar in that Sherwood didn't sign anyone to replace Benteke and Smith didn't replace Tammy. I know we signed guff like Richards and Lescott under Sherwood, but we also signed players of real quality - Veretout, Amavi, Ayew, Gueye, and of course the beast that is Adama Traore. These players would all walk into our current team. But like with this season, they were all thrown together on the pitch with no idea how to get the best out of them. This seems to be a constant cycle at Villa: buy said player, don't utilise him properly, sell him on at reduced fee, see him shine at said other club and triple in value. We sold Gueye, Traore, Veretout and Amavi for much lower than their true value. Traore was young when he was here but often came on and destroyed defenders and helped us get a goal. Despite this, he did not start one game for us! We could have developed him properly in the Championship, but no. We sold him to Boro after one season and now look where he is.

 

I don't think it's our recruitment that is the real problem. It's the fact we buy players then fail to get the best out of them and sell them at a low fee. This has to end if we're to stop this constant cycle of failure. 

[MotoMkali]

3 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

It's similar in that Sherwood didn't sign anyone to replace Benteke and Smith didn't replace Tammy. I know we signed guff like Richards and Lescott under Sherwood, but we also signed players of real quality - Veretout, Amavi, Ayew, Gueye, and of course the beast that is Adama Traore. These players would all walk into our current team. But like with this season, they were all thrown together on the pitch with no idea how to get the best out of them. This seems to be a constant cycle at Villa: buy said player, don't utilise him properly, sell him on at reduced fee, see him shine at said other club and triple in value. We sold Gueye, Traore, Veretout and Amavi for much lower than their true value. Traore was young when he was here but often came on and destroyed defenders and helped us get a goal. Despite this, he did not start one game for us! We could have developed him properly in the Championship, but no. We sold him to Boro after one season and now look where he is.

 

I don't think it's our recruitment that is the real problem. It's the fact we buy players then fail to get the best out of them and sell them at a low fee. This has to end if we're to stop this constant cycle of failure. 

Traore demanded to be sold to a PL club. 

[Stevo985]

51 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

The only one I'd maybe agree on is Guzan who was good that season. Lowton and Westwood might be performing reasonably at Burnley but that's under a completely different manager with completely different tactics. Put them in our team and they'd look terrible, guaranteed. Weimann worked harder than our current wingers but lacked quality - he's at his peak now and playing in the Championship. I guess at that time Weimann looked like he could make it at PL level - but compare El Ghazi at the same age and he was a regular at Ajax and playing for the Netherlands. 

 

The difference between our current squad and Lambert's was our current squad has been thrown together quickly and Lambert's squad had a top quality striker who we could lump it up to when under pressure and who scored enough goals to keep us up. Put prime Benteke in this current Villa team and we'd be miles better. 

 

I'm not saying our current squad is great, it isn't, but Lambert's squad was poor too bar three or four players. 

They’d all walk into this team. You don’t think Delph would get in our team?!

 

[AXD]

33 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

It's similar in that Sherwood didn't sign anyone to replace Benteke and Smith didn't replace Tammy. I know we signed guff like Richards and Lescott under Sherwood, but we also signed players of real quality - Veretout, Amavi, Ayew, Gueye, and of course the beast that is Adama Traore. These players would all walk into our current team. But like with this season, they were all thrown together on the pitch with no idea how to get the best out of them. This seems to be a constant cycle at Villa: buy said player, don't utilise him properly, sell him on at reduced fee, see him shine at said other club and triple in value. We sold Gueye, Traore, Veretout and Amavi for much lower than their true value. Traore was young when he was here but often came on and destroyed defenders and helped us get a goal. Despite this, he did not start one game for us! We could have developed him properly in the Championship, but no. We sold him to Boro after one season and now look where he is.

 

I don't think it's our recruitment that is the real problem. It's the fact we buy players then fail to get the best out of them and sell them at a low fee. This has to end if we're to stop this constant cycle of failure. 

Exactly this.

I seem to recall Veretout, Ayew Gueye Traore and Amavi getting slated very often on here, same as with our current players like Luiz (less so the last few games), Nakamba, Targett, Guilbert & Wesley. These players are being bought because of their resale value rather than current performances. They are all young and far from their peak. This year we lack even more PL experienced players, even the Sherwood team had that and of course Lambert had that. Our defence in the last few years performed best when we had at least one experienced player leading them (Vlaar, Chester, Terry) which this team does not have. I know there are other examples like Lescott, but overall an experienced player helps the others develop. Mings is good and talented, but we made him a hero based on half a season in the championship.

Midfield, same story. Someone already mentioned Petrov on here, last year we had Whelan and Jedinak. These players don't have to start every match for me, but they are vital in finding a good balance and keeping people in right positions on the field. I think Whelan on the bench would have been better than Nakamba, even though the latter might have a better future.

Smith could and should have done better, and the players probably can do better. But the situation has been created by our management. Going into the PL after a few years in the Championship with a complete overhaul of the team during the summer without getting any experienced PL players to take the lead, is just a bad decision. We can still stay up, and will probably be a better team for it next year with players' value going up, but we took too big a risk in how we assembled this team.

I still hope we stay up, but to avoid another season at the bottom, I would also hope to see some 30 year old players in the door with 200-300 games in the PL.

[briny_ear]

1 hour ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

The only one I'd maybe agree on is Guzan who was good that season. Lowton and Westwood might be performing reasonably at Burnley but that's under a completely different manager with completely different tactics. Put them in our team and they'd look terrible, guaranteed. Weimann worked harder than our current wingers but lacked quality - he's at his peak now and playing in the Championship. I guess at that time Weimann looked like he could make it at PL level - but compare El Ghazi at the same age and he was a regular at Ajax and playing for the Netherlands. 

 

The difference between our current squad and Lambert's was our current squad has been thrown together quickly and Lambert's squad had a top quality striker who we could lump it up to when under pressure and who scored enough goals to keep us up. Put prime Benteke in this current Villa team and we'd be miles better. 

 

I'm not saying our current squad is great, it isn't, but Lambert's squad was poor too bar three or four players. 

I think you just answered the question posed at the start of the thread!