Wesley Moraes

[DCJonah]

6 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

I don't agree with that, if he got 5 goals in the first half of the season he could as well get 5 or 6 in the second half, he would have played against the same shit teams again (though he also scored a very good goal against Arsenal for example). Also given the improvement of our players after the corona break would suggest he could have continued to score goals.

Also don't agree that he did nothing when he didn't score. On the contrary I think it became apparent how much we missed his presence up front. He is a unit and occupied many defenders, making space for others, which is a valuable contribution even if he didn't get so many touches. I would say he contributed far more than what Samatta or Davis did. Another example, against Manu away when we played quite well even some of my Man u friends pointed out that he made it difficult for their defence, even though he in that game if I remember correctly didn't have many or any shots at goal. 

I agree Watkins contributes far more, I currently hold Watkins in much higher regard than Wesley. But as has been pointed out so many times, new country, new culture, new style of football, being young, getting thrown in in a new unsettled team - some just have unrealistic expectations. My assessment is that he sometimes looked like he couldn't either control the ball, pass, run or jump, but then at times also played exquisite passes, made intelligent runs and showed nice control. Against Burnely he was unplayable until the thug Mee breaked his leg. All in all there were definitely enough glimpses to fully support him and have hope that he will come good. Add to that his very good attitude. The prospect of having him as cover and competition for Watkins is very encouraging imo. 

I think the argument we missed him is exaggerated. We missed him because the alternative was nothing. Didn't we play multiple games with El Ghazi as a forward?

Samatta was shit, but after lockdown we played better than we'd played with Wesley previously.   

[Keener window-cleaner]

1 hour ago, AJ said:

When he was frequently falling to the ground fishing for a foul, he was shit. When he did actually play football, he was quite good.

Yes it did look silly in the first games, especially for being such a big man. At the same time, the difference in physicallity between Belgium and the PL shouldn't be underestimated. Also that big players get much worse treatment and given another standard from the referees, and also being that young doesn't help.

In the same way he looked silly in the first games, I was impressed that he started to stand his ground so quickly afterwards. I'm also glad that he didn't cope with it the Zlatan-way, adapting by deliberately injuring the opponents by elbowing and other things. 

[Keener window-cleaner]

3 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think the argument we missed him is exaggerated. We missed him because the alternative was nothing. Didn't we play multiple games with El Ghazi as a forward?

Samatta was shit, but after lockdown we played better than we'd played with Wesley previously.   

The main question was if it would be possible that he got another 5 or 6 goals, and that is in my opinion not unrealistic.

Fully agree that the alternatives weren't much.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Keener window-cleaner

[DCJonah]

Just now, Keener window-cleaner said:

The main question was if it would be possible that he got another 5 or 6 goals, and that is in my opinion not unrealistic.

We'll never know but I'd have been very surprised. He went 12 games without a goal and 4 games without a shot on target. 

[Junxs]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

No chance was he getting 12 goals. He scored in 4 games with a hattrick against the worst team in the league. 

Also unlike Watkins, when he wasn't scoring he did nothing for the team, which was a huge problem for us and a reason we were so poor. 

He has a clean slate with me and I think he will be fine as back up but pretending he wasn't woeful last year is pointless. 

I don't recall many other players scoring a hattrick v Norwich last season, and no one managed a hattrick when we played Sheffield United this season.

Using the same argument you could say Watkins has only scored in 3 matches this season.

I'd say he was on course to get double figures last year, would definitely have been a better option to have than Samatta or Davis

[useless]

After lockdown we were still poor, was only the last four games as confidently predicted by me that we improved, whilst Wesley was fit most were confident that we'd have enough to stay up. After fifteen games he'd only scored one less goal than Watkins has now after fifteen games, and in a weaker side, if he can return back to how he was then he could still be a useful player for us.

[DCJonah]

2 minutes ago, Junxs said:

I don't recall many other players scoring a hattrick v Norwich last season, and no one managed a hattrick when we played Sheffield United this season.

Using the same argument you could say Watkins has only scored in 3 matches this season.

I'd say he was on course to get double figures last year, would definitely have been a better option to have than Samatta or Davis

You could. I think Watkins goal scoring is a slight concern but he offers so much more to the team. 

[Keener window-cleaner]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

We'll never know but I'd have been very surprised. He went 12 games without a goal and 4 games without a shot on target. 

Yep, and it's clear that Watkins have larger potential to hit those numbers, even if Watkins is going through a smiliar dry spell and hasn't scored in 12 games either, Watkins has gotten into more scoring positions and has been very unlucky at times. On the other hand Watkins plays in a much more settled team with better players who creates more chances. It will be interesting to see Wesley in this team, if he continues to drop back and play as a no 10 as he did last season, or if he will have more opportunities to get himself in scoring positions. 

[DCJonah]

1 minute ago, Keener window-cleaner said:

Yep, and it's clear that Watkins have larger potential to hit those numbers, even if Watkins is going through a smiliar dry spell and hasn't scored in 12 games either, Watkins has gotten into more scoring positions and has been very unlucky at times. On the other hand Watkins plays in a much more settled team with better players who creates more chances. It will be interesting to see Wesley in this team, if he continues to drop back and play as a no 10 as he did last season, or if he will have more opportunities to get himself in scoring positions. 

I think he's got much more chance to come good now there isn't the pressure on him and we're a better team. We can see if he's up to it or not, whereas last season all our eggs were in his basket. 

I'm looking forward to his return but nothing will change IMO, how bad he was last year. I thought he was truly woeful at times. I hope he develops once he's fully fit. 

[KenjiOgiwara]

I'm not even sure a fit in form Wesley would come back and challenge Watkins. Wesley always looked more like a CAM to me. He could pass, had vision etc. But getting into the box? Not so much. 

Maybe he could have played a little deeper? I dunno. Could he come back in as a CAM?

Edited January 16, 2021 by KenjiOgiwara

[MaVilla]

34 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I'm not even sure a fit in form Wesley would come back and challenge Watkins. Wesley always looked more like a CAM to me. He could pass, had vision etc. But getting into the box? Not so much. 

Maybe he could have played a little deeper? I dunno. Could he come back in as a CAM?

i think wesley struggled being up top by himself, being the "main" goalscorer etc, added to issues with settling in to the league etc.

tbh i can really see a lineup where wesley plays on paper as the central striker, but in game drops deeper allowing players like grealish, barkley, watkins, troare (or whoever) running off him/beyond him, i think that would be an entirely different proposition to when he was isolated up top in his first few months with us.

Edited January 16, 2021 by MaVilla

[Sam-AVFC]

50 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Samatta was shit, but after lockdown we played better than we'd played with Wesley previously.   

What's the relevance? Luiz was playing far better. As were Konsa and Trezeguet. McGinn was back in the team.

Samatta certainly didn't look a better player. Unless it was Wesley holding back all the new signings the whole time and they couldn't stop being dragged down by him until he'd been out of the team for 6 months.

[Keener window-cleaner]

24 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I'm not even sure a fit in form Wesley would come back and challenge Watkins. Wesley always looked more like a CAM to me. He could pass, had vision etc. But getting into the box? Not so much. 

Maybe he could have played a little deeper? I dunno. Could he come back in as a CAM?

Yes, I think Wesley as a 10 in the Barkley position and Watkins as the no 9 could be interesting to see, Wesley occupying opponents and wrestling and Watkins given more space to run at goal. Would mean more burden on our wide forwards to create chances, but in some games and against the thug teams it could be interesting to see.

[DCJonah]

Just now, Sam-AVFC said:

What's the relevance? Luiz was playing far better. As were Konsa and Trezeguet. McGinn was back in the team.

Samatta certainly didn't look a better player. Unless it was Wesley holding back all the new signings the whole time and they couldn't stop being dragged down by him until he'd been out of the team for 6 months.

The idea that we never played better without him. 

Of course there were other factors but then those apply to when he first got injured as well. 

[Sam-AVFC]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

The idea that we never played better without him. 

Of course there were other factors but then those apply to when he first got injured as well. 

I agree they apply to when he first got injured. At that point no one would have complained if we sold Trezeguet, with Konsa and Luiz getting regular criticism for not being up to it. If none of those had kicked a ball since then there would be plenty of people saying they have nothing to offer us.

[Hank Scorpio]

4 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I'm not even sure a fit in form Wesley would come back and challenge Watkins. Wesley always looked more like a CAM to me. He could pass, had vision etc. But getting into the box? Not so much. 

Maybe he could have played a little deeper? I dunno. Could he come back in as a CAM?

Wesley as an attacking midfielder? Really. That is interesting. 

And by interesting I mean mental.

 

[KenjiOgiwara]

42 minutes ago, Pissflaps said:

Wesley as an attacking midfielder? Really. That is interesting. 

And by interesting I mean mental.

 

I think he actually started out as a CAM, so there's that. Maybe not completely mental.

[QldVilla]

9 hours ago, zab6359 said:

That's simply not true!

However he was on course to get double figures which surely (should he get back to that standard) makes him a better option off the bench than KD.

People seem to forget his background and that he was on a steep learning curve. He was nowhere near the finished article, he was not the right signing for the money to lead a front line in the PL. IMO he was maybe 60% of the finished article, who knows how he will recover from the injury, but if he is able to realize his potential, he will prove a lot of people wrong again.

[The Fun Factory]

Wes never looked comfortable in the box, his natural terrain seemed between midfield and the penalty area in which he had good vision and hold up play. I still don't really think you can play him as a lone striker, which goes back to the question why we thought just buying him and him alone was a good idea considering we have always played one up top under Deano. Probably one of the reasons Suso was let go.

Watkins is a completely different player, arguably not as talented but fits the system and is obviously a Smith signing.

[villan_007]

I loved that he liked a row. That Brazilian rage. Always in the defenders ear having a go. Think we miss a character like that. Someone to ruffle a few feathers! 

Looking forward to having him back