Racism Part two

[Follyfoot]

11 hours ago, Sam-AVFC said:

Does it count as an assassination if someone decides to plough a car into anti racism protesters or do they have to target a specific name?

 

As always missing the point entirely going off on tangents with others arguments. 
 

To reiterate the point, The average Joe in the street will never support BLM politically as the ‘aims’ that they are associated with scare them. The fact that there is no defined leadership also makes them very wary, Quoting the reasons for this (because it is a policy adopted by the Black Panthers) also worries people 

I think we all agree that the smash the system approach is never going to work,  whether misconstrued or not,  so ultimately black lives matter is not going to achieve its principal most important goal because of it, which is a tragedy.  Like I said earlier take away  these barriers and proper lasting change will come.

[bickster]

10 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

I think we all agree that the smash the system approach is never going to work

Do we? You really should stop assuming what others think

[Follyfoot]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Do we? You really should stop assuming what others think

Okay it’s what I think and nobody else. Good luck with seeking Anarchy and change. A good start would be getting a political party elected other than the Tories which bizarrely has not happened, eh

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Follyfoot said:

Okay it’s what I think and nobody else. Good luck with seeking Anarchy and change. A good start would be getting a political party elected other than the Tories which bizarrely has not happened, eh

You only know what you think, why not just stick to that instead of claiming to know what many are thinking. It doesn't validate your arguments any more, in fact, quite the opposite

[Follyfoot]

Just now, bickster said:

You only know what you think, why not just stick to that instead of claiming to know what many are thinking. It doesn't validate your arguments any more, in fact, quite the opposite

The same with you fella, eh

[Genie]

So the new statue in Bristol has been taken down again.

It was pretty obviously either going to get pulled down or taken down as a preventative action.

Quote

A sculpture of a Black Lives Matter protester has been removed from the plinth where a statue of slave trader Edward Colston once stood. 

The sculpture of Jen Reid was erected on Wednesday but removed by Bristol City Council just over 24 hours later.

Ms Reid had been photographed standing on the empty plinth after the Colston statue was pulled down during protests.

Mayor Marvin Rees said it was up to the people of Bristol to decide what would replace Colston's statue.

Bristol City Council contractors removed the sculpture of Ms Reid and took it away in the back of a lorry by 05:30 BST on Thursday.

BBC link

Edited July 16, 2020 by Genie

[Sam-AVFC]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

As always missing the point entirely going off on tangents with others arguments. 

My bad, I mistakenly took you discussing the recent lack of political assassinations over several pages as you trying to make a point they don't happen.

[ml1dch]

9 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

My bad, I mistakenly took you discussing the recent lack of political assassinations over several pages as you trying to make a point they don't happen.

Indeed. If a pro-Brexit activist is able to murder a sitting MP in the name of his cause I imagine there will be plenty willing to take out an announced 'leader' of the BLM protests. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

To reiterate the point, The average Joe in the street will never support BLM politically as the ‘aims’ that they are associated with scare them. The fact that there is no defined leadership also makes them very wary, Quoting the reasons for this (because it is a policy adopted by the Black Panthers) also worries people 

I think we all agree that the smash the system approach is never going to work,  whether misconstrued or not,  so ultimately black lives matter is not going to achieve its principal most important goal because of it, which is a tragedy.  Like I said earlier take away  these barriers and proper lasting change will come.

My perception is that nearly everyone supports the idea of black people being treated equally and not being victimised, oppressed, discriminated against, beaten up by the police and so on. That they support this regardless of whatever else.

I also perceive that what seems like a small number of people/activists have access to a BLM twitter account and have been sort of promoting themselves and their views on other things as a kind of official BLM movement stance. And that stance has the flaws you highlight, and is actually counter-productive in that it alienates more people than it attracts, and it takes away from the righteous cause of equality.

It's a bit like the eXtinction Rebellion bloke who stood on the roof of a train and blocked it leaving the station. It was picked up by loads of people that "mate, you're literally stopping people using public transport - people who would otherwise be driving and making more pollution - people who are doing what you're asking for". It's a real shame when a good cause gets discredited through the actions of some numpties running away with themselves.

[lapal_fan]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

So the new statue in Bristol has been taken down again.

It was pretty obviously either going to get pulled down or taken down as a preventative action.

BBC link

Shame they weren't so quick to decide on the Colston statue ay? 

[tonyh29]

2 hours ago, ml1dch said:

Indeed. If a pro-Brexit activist is able to murder a sitting MP in the name of his cause I imagine there will be plenty willing to take out an announced 'leader' of the BLM protests. 

do you have a link to this Pro-Brexit activism of Mair ?

There is no doubt he had sympathies , even membership  to far right groups , but i don't recall at the trial  Brexit being the motivation for his cause or any evidence offered up that he was an activist  or that it was his cause .

The evidence from the trial came to the conclusion of a "loner"

Quote

Speaking after the verdict Det Sup Nick Wallen, from West Yorkshire Police, said Mair had never had so much as a conversation with the police.

He described him as a “loner in the truest sense of the word.”

 

 

It appears that Mair, however, had little to do with such groups, perhaps because he was so reclusive. He preferred his relationships with the far right to be long-distance affairs.

 

His “death to traitors” outburst during his first court appearance shows he regarded Cox as one of “the collaborators”, the white people who had betrayed their race.

 

You may say , it's not important , but I think in a debate about certain sections of the media \ society  painting  BLM as  Marxist activists trying to destroy the state v the counter argument that they aren't (or at least the majority aren't) and how a (good)* cause gets discredited through the actions of some numpties running away with themselves, it doesn't feel valid to then counter argument by pinning a murder by a white supremacist racist onto Brexit  without any apparent evidence .

* I've put good in brackets as whilst BLM is a good cause , I'm using the phrase Blandy used with his excellent point  ,  I appreciate in the context of Brexit a lot of people won't feel it was a good cause , hence the distinction

Edited July 16, 2020 by tonyh29
format was goosed

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

do you have a link to this Pro-Brexit activism of Mair ?

Agreed, he waqs no "activist". He was however, a Nazi, a racist and as you say a recluse. That doesn't take away from the fact though that he murdered Jo Cox MP and that cannot be seen as anything other than a politically motivated assassination. Quibbling about the use of the term activist is somewhat not the point

[tonyh29]

14 minutes ago, bickster said:

Agreed, he waqs no "activist". He was however, a Nazi, a racist and as you say a recluse. That doesn't take away from the fact though that he murdered Jo Cox MP and that cannot be seen as anything other than a politically motivated assassination. Quibbling about the use of the term activist is somewhat not the point

Respectfully , you are missing the point of the conversation .

 

[StefanAVFC]

I mean, does it really matter if the bloke was an expicit activist?

He murdered a very pro-remain MP whilst yelling 'Britain First'.

Quibbling over the detail is poor IMO.

Edited July 16, 2020 by StefanAVFC

[Seat68]

Mair described himself as a Political Activist and gave his name at trial as “death to traitors, freedom for Britain”. I don’t think we need to quibble about if he was a supporter of Leave.eu or Vote Leave. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Seat68

[ml1dch]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

Agreed, he waqs no "activist". He was however, a Nazi, a racist and as you say a recluse. That doesn't take away from the fact though that he murdered Jo Cox MP and that cannot be seen as anything other than a politically motivated assassination. Quibbling about the use of the term activist is somewhat not the point

That's quite fair. Activist was the wrong choice of word. 

I'll go with the slightly more unwieldy "supporter of the position that those who shared his politics held in the vote that followed less than a week after he murdered someone campaigning for the opposite position, while shouting political slogans". 

Obviously I get why people on Mair's side of that particular argument would want to distance themselves from him though. If a member of the Lib Dems had murdered say, Andrea Jenkyns a week before the vote I'd desperately be trying to disassociate the two things as well. 

[Sam-AVFC]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

You may say , it's not important , but I think in a debate about certain sections of the media \ society  painting  BLM as  Marxist activists trying to destroy the state v the counter argument that they aren't (or at least the majority aren't) and how a (good)* cause gets discredited through the actions of some numpties running away with themselves, it doesn't feel valid to then counter argument by pinning a murder by a white supremacist racist onto Brexit  without any apparent evidence .

Agree with this. While I think there were a lot of bad motivations for Brexit you can't possibly assume this of everyone and lump them in with the worst of a group. 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

That's quite fair. Activist was the wrong choice of word. 

I'll go with the slightly more unwieldy "supporter of the position that those who shared his politics held in the vote that followed less than a week after he murdered someone campaigning for the opposite position, while shouting political slogans". 

Obviously I get why people on Mair's side of that particular argument would want to distance themselves from him though. If a member of the Lib Dems had murdered say, Andrea Jenkyns a week before the vote I'd desperately be trying to disassociate the two things as well. 

I don't doubt Mair would have voted leave , but to describe him as "pro-Brexit activist able to murder a sitting MP in the name of his cause "  isn't accurate  ..For what its worth , the evidence found at his home seems to be of neo-Nazi origins , conspiracy theories , assassinations  , executions of race traitors   .... nothing has been entered in the accounts of any Brexit paraphernalia .

it's not a case of distancing  , its not a case of quibbling  ... it's a case of your statement appeared to not be accurate / true , hence I asked if you had some evidence   .. I even went to pains to spell out WHY I felt people  decrying false accusations of one subject whilst representing false accusations on another was not a good basis  for a discussion .....

If people on here don't wish to see that then so be it ,i won't lose any sleep over it ,  but have a read through other threads and other claims have been made that aren't factually correct , and see if the reaction has been different  ...

[NurembergVillan]

We're getting lost in words here - feels like classic messageboarding.

I read the initial quote as saying "he was a pro-Brexit activist who killed her in the name of Brexit [his cause]".

My understanding is that he did kill Jo Cox in the name of his cause, white supremacy, and also that he was (or likely to be) pro-Brexit.  It's a subtle distinction, but seems to be what we're caught up on.

[veloman]

Earlier on there was a discussion about 'Godwin's Law , which I had heard about some years ago. Has anyone ever seen statistics / evidence that the majority of people who contribute to message boards are, shall we say, 'Left Leaning' ? This is not meant to be a wind up; as of this moment we are all still entitled to our opinions but I thought I read in, perhaps, some OU material that this was the case.