KenjiOgiwara Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, bickster said: What does that have to do with democracy? Well if a solid percentage of a town pays money for something to be actioned I'd say that's to some degree connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Solid percentage by what measure? If the rich 5%, who could own over 50% of the wealth, does that make it democratic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 25 minutes ago, bickster said: Serious Question: Do you imagine that it was a democratic decision to put a statue of Colston up in the first place? That is rarely how it works I don't know about back in the day of the Colston statue , though Wiki suggests his statue was proposed by a charity and funds raised via a public appeal ... But now its kinda exactly how it works , there are planning applications and public consultations for statues .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 Never saw BLM grinding to a halt on the rocks of contravening local planning procedures, but that’s what happens when you don’t get professional advice at an early stage. Any of you guys thinking of setting up some sort of popular uprising, PM me for a fee quote. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 15, 2020 29 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: though Wiki suggests his statue was proposed by a charity Can I guess it was a charity that bore his name? Doubt the bookies would take my money tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, bickster said: Can I guess it was a charity that bore his name? Doubt the bookies would take my money tbh You'd technically lose your money. It was proposed by The Anchor Society. (The Anchor Society, founded in 1769 at a dinner held in honour of Edward Colston) A quick look at their website though suggests they are a thoroughly decent local charity doing a lot of good, irrespective of the misdeeds of their inspiration. Edited July 15, 2020 by ml1dch 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Stevo985 said: Tearing down a statue erected to commemorate the BLM movement that took down the original statue is not a good look. It will just show them up to be the massive racists that they are. Some people will indeed view the new statue as the ideal monument to the symbolic act of toppling the statue of a slave trader , but (caveat I've not followed the BLM debate that closely ) weren't there some questionable objectives with the BLM movement that are not really something a lot of people would feel comfortable commemorating ? So , some of those people, who aren't all gammons and racists ,who were probably ambivalent are now potentially going to be a bit irked by it ? Jen Reid might just be your run-of-the-mill activist and not a diehard Marxist , but I'm sure someone is currently trawling through her Internet history looking for dirt. On the general debate , I think it is a mistake to automatically adopted this default position that everyone objecting to the statue is a gammon or a racist ... My view has been that the existing Colston statue was probably right to come down , but the way they toppled it was wrong (Its well documented I'm not a fan of mob rule taking the law into their own hands ). The artists stunt today is quite provocative and should spark some more debate and awareness, which is a good thing, but ultimately the statue has to come down (correctly and not carried out by a baying mob ) .... or they could go through the process of having it approved like any other statue would be . The people of Bristol were promised a consultation of what should go on the plinth ,who knows, they might be proud of the statue and want it to stay in place. That opinion is neither gammon , nor racist , but in effect the conversation is already essentially fingers in the ear and la la la I can’t hear you ..quite sad really , I think its important discussions should be had . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 26 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Never saw BLM grinding to a halt on the rocks of contravening local planning procedures, but that’s what happens when you don’t get professional advice at an early stage. Any of you guys thinking of setting up some sort of popular uprising, PM me for a fee quote. I'm assuming the people who spent hours analysing the planning permission on Dominic Cummings parents house are probably having wet dreams about investigating every planning application law this statue has broken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: I'm assuming the people who spent hours analysing the planning permission on Dominic Cummings parents house are probably having wet dreams about investigating every planning application law this statue has broken That was a bit after I’d lost interest, so I’m sketchy on it, the bit where we found out he came from a family of entitled rich liars and cheats out to scam the system for personal gain. Who knew! Wasn’t it the additional house next to theirs that was the issue? The one they were keeping secret so not paying rates on? Having not [aid for planning, meaning they didn’t pay for building regs, meaning if it was insured, it was insured fraudulently. Or they had people sleeping in a property with no fire insurance. Bloody rules and regulations. You can see why they shouldn’t apply to the ruling classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 43 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: there are planning applications and public consultations and then, if all else fails, text conversations with the Minister in charge. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolta Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 48 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Some people will indeed view the new statue as the ideal monument to the symbolic act of toppling the statue of a slave trader , but (caveat I've not followed the BLM debate that closely ) weren't there some questionable objectives with the BLM movement that are not really something a lot of people would feel comfortable commemorating ? So , some of those people, who aren't all gammons and racists ,who were probably ambivalent are now potentially going to be a bit irked by it ? Jen Reid might just be your run-of-the-mill activist and not a diehard Marxist , but I'm sure someone is currently trawling through her Internet history looking for dirt. On the general debate , I think it is a mistake to automatically adopted this default position that everyone objecting to the statue is a gammon or a racist ... My view has been that the existing Colston statue was probably right to come down , but the way they toppled it was wrong (Its well documented I'm not a fan of mob rule taking the law into their own hands ). The artists stunt today is quite provocative and should spark some more debate and awareness, which is a good thing, but ultimately the statue has to come down (correctly and not carried out by a baying mob ) .... or they could go through the process of having it approved like any other statue would be . The people of Bristol were promised a consultation of what should go on the plinth ,who knows, they might be proud of the statue and want it to stay in place. That opinion is neither gammon , nor racist , but in effect the conversation is already essentially fingers in the ear and la la la I can’t hear you ..quite sad really , I think its important discussions should be had . Pretty sure there hasn't been a movement in history where people haven't tried to discredit it. That's the same thing here with BLM. At its most basic, and the reason people have been protesting, is in protest at racial inequality, against racism, and, obviously, the horrendous way black people keep getting killed by police in America. It's all of that though. People haven't been protesting in order to overthrow capitalism (although, we should note capitalism is an ever-evolving thing, and a lot of what we see these days is exploitative and bullshit, and deserves a critical eye). But there are a lot of people who would like to make people with only half an eye on the situation think that actually BLM is anti-white (bullshit) and about communism (also bullshit—although there are people everywhere with the view that our economic system caters for and benefits a select few, and who would argue with that? Sure, capitalism generates wealth too, but there are flip sides to this. We should be able to discuss everything, all of it openly without people crying about Marxist this and that. I kept this in the brackets because, as I say, contrary to some people's desires, the issues raised by BLM are about racism.) I'm as open-minded about this as can be. The BLM statue in Bristol is a stunt it seems? I kind of think it's way too provocative and a bit of a dickish thing to do. Of course there should be a different statue in Bristol—a statue that marks something specific to Bristol, one that doesn't depict a slave trader like he's some kind of thing to be lauded. There are a lot of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 I seem to recall that the public subscription for the Colston statue failed to raise sufficient funds, and that people in the city were ambivalent about it, even in a time when statues were being raised across the country by public subscription, so I think the idea its installation was in any way 'democratic' is ludicrous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 15, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 15, 2020 47 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Some people will indeed view the new statue as the ideal monument to the symbolic act of toppling the statue of a slave trader , but (caveat I've not followed the BLM debate that closely ) weren't there some questionable objectives with the BLM movement that are not really something a lot of people would feel comfortable commemorating ? So , some of those people, who aren't all gammons and racists ,who were probably ambivalent are now potentially going to be a bit irked by it ? Jen Reid might just be your run-of-the-mill activist and not a diehard Marxist , but I'm sure someone is currently trawling through her Internet history looking for dirt. On the general debate , I think it is a mistake to automatically adopted this default position that everyone objecting to the statue is a gammon or a racist ... My view has been that the existing Colston statue was probably right to come down , but the way they toppled it was wrong (Its well documented I'm not a fan of mob rule taking the law into their own hands ). The artists stunt today is quite provocative and should spark some more debate and awareness, which is a good thing, but ultimately the statue has to come down (correctly and not carried out by a baying mob ) .... or they could go through the process of having it approved like any other statue would be . The people of Bristol were promised a consultation of what should go on the plinth ,who knows, they might be proud of the statue and want it to stay in place. That opinion is neither gammon , nor racist , but in effect the conversation is already essentially fingers in the ear and la la la I can’t hear you ..quite sad really , I think its important discussions should be had . Nobody has said that anybody who objects to the statue is racist or a gammon. Your last line isn't true. you've just made that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 15, 2020 50 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Some people will indeed view the new statue as the ideal monument to the symbolic act of toppling the statue of a slave trader , but (caveat I've not followed the BLM debate that closely ) weren't there some questionable objectives with the BLM movement that are not really something a lot of people would feel comfortable commemorating ? So , some of those people, who aren't all gammons and racists ,who were probably ambivalent are now potentially going to be a bit irked by it ? Jen Reid might just be your run-of-the-mill activist and not a diehard Marxist , but I'm sure someone is currently trawling through her Internet history looking for dirt. On the general debate , I think it is a mistake to automatically adopted this default position that everyone objecting to the statue is a gammon or a racist ... My view has been that the existing Colston statue was probably right to come down , but the way they toppled it was wrong (Its well documented I'm not a fan of mob rule taking the law into their own hands ). The artists stunt today is quite provocative and should spark some more debate and awareness, which is a good thing, but ultimately the statue has to come down (correctly and not carried out by a baying mob ) .... or they could go through the process of having it approved like any other statue would be . The people of Bristol were promised a consultation of what should go on the plinth ,who knows, they might be proud of the statue and want it to stay in place. That opinion is neither gammon , nor racist , but in effect the conversation is already essentially fingers in the ear and la la la I can’t hear you ..quite sad really , I think its important discussions should be had . You appear to be making the mistake of considering the statue as intended to be permanent, it clearly wasn't. The statue is just another part of a protest, not designed for permanence. the artist himself even said as much The statue itself, keeps the debate moving 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted July 15, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 15, 2020 22 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: (caveat I've not followed the BLM debate that closely ) Oh, I can help bring you up to speed here. There are two sides, the one side, we’ll call them the good guys, they believe black lives matter. The other side, we’ll call them retards, gammons and racists, they believe we shouldn’t be hasty and it’s important to consider cultural change and examine the small print and worry about the impact on others and how the message could be accidentally misconstrued and we must also think of the white people and we mustn’t all end up wearing hijabs and Washington redskins is just a name and we never thought the robinsons golly was racist and my best friend is black and he says its a trap and when i went to Nigeria they were rude to me so its possible some black people are horrible and that guy that was strangled by the police well he already had a criminal record and I heard they’re communists and anyway if they don’t like it here they can go back home, yeah but, yeah but, warrabout... 8 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, bickster said: You appear to be making the mistake of considering the statue as intended to be permanent, it clearly wasn't. The statue is just another part of a protest, not designed for permanence. the artist himself even said as much The statue itself, keeps the debate moving Although I reckon that when a shortlist is established for what should go there permanently, it's possibly jumped to the head of the queue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted July 15, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, ml1dch said: Although I reckon that when a shortlist is established for what should go there permanently, it's possibly jumped to the head of the queue. I think given the current politics of the area, you are correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, bickster said: You appear to be making the mistake of considering the statue as intended to be permanent, it clearly wasn't. The statue is just another part of a protest, not designed for permanence. the artist himself even said as much The statue itself, keeps the debate moving you appear to be making the mistake of not considering what I know and also not following the conversation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Oh, I can help bring you up to speed here. There are two sides, the one side, we’ll call them the good guys, they believe black lives matter. The other side, we’ll call them retards, gammons and racists, they believe we shouldn’t be hasty and it’s important to consider cultural change and examine the small print and worry about the impact on others and how the message could be accidentally misconstrued and we must also think of the white people and we mustn’t all end up wearing hijabs and Washington redskins is just a name and we never thought the robinsons golly was racist and my best friend is black and he says its a trap and when i went to Nigeria they were rude to me so its possible some black people are horrible and that guy that was strangled by the police well he already had a criminal record and I heard they’re communists and anyway if they don’t like it here they can go back home, yeah but, yeah but, warrabout... so all the sky sports presenters who decided to stop wearing BLM badges are racist gammon retards ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Nobody has said that anybody who objects to the statue is racist or a gammon. Your last line isn't true. you've just made that up. remember the other week when in your eagerness to jump on one of my posts you didn't actually read it .... might be a good start point , just saying 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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