Dean Smith

[Zatman]

I think the Grealish thing is overplayed as well. The record is poor on paper but of the 10 defeats 2 vs Liverpool, City, United, Spurs, Leicester and away to Wolves who were challenging top 6 at time. 

Watford, Sheffield United and Palace away we shpuld have done better

Even last season the form had already dipped before he got injured

Edited August 23, 2021 by Zatman

[Mark Albrighton]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

If thats so precious to you fine...I agree you have found examples...and as you might now glean, after boring the pants off other posters with this.....I disagree with them.

seen as its its such a pertinent point for you to follow, why don't you ask them why they are at odds with your view.....you seem to be good at that.

I have to be honest, I didn't even notice their stance.

I can glean from other posts that have been made by them - which display dissatisfaction but don’t explicitly state “Smith Out”, or by other posters which they have agreed with the reasons as to why they have come to that conclusion.

If I wanted further clarification, I would ask. In fact I have done, when looking back through these posts, I noticed I asked someone to elaborate when they said they wanted Nuno instead. I can’t recall what the response was, or if I received one.

If you want to label me “precious” about it, fine. I honestly don’t mind. 

The problem is the Smith supporters, the ones who “won’t hear anything negative about him” will reference these “Smith Out” posts, calling them out as hyperbole.

What then follows is that these posts are either denied as ever existing or dismissed by others as being in the heat of the moment. The pro Smith group are then labelled touchy about it. Or indeed “precious”.

I/we might be precious, but as far as pointing out a “Smith Out” vibe that’s bubbling away under the surface, sometimes spilling out, I, or rather we, are bang on the money.
 

[QldVilla]

30 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think many of us do value stability and a calm demeanor, continuity in football management is precious.

I am not in favour of constantly changing managers, but I am equally as concious, that a club cannot run with losing matches every week , like we have seen in the past( that is nothing to do with Dean, for those doubting Thomas's)

 

Some people have a simplistic view of what coaching actually is and judge a person on the end result. Winning is an outcome, not a measurement of a coaches ability.

Smith wasn’t my choice either, not because he wasn’t a good coach, but I didn’t see the experience at PL level which was going to be required if we were promoted. He was going to have to develop as a coach by making mistakes, it was a risk the club took and besides some tough times in the first season in the PL, he and his team were able to correct.

As early as November in that first season back I was saying we were in trouble, I could see what Smith was trying to do, but for me the issue wasn’t Smith, it was the lack of PL experience with the players brought in. Some ordinary refereeing also didn’t help.

My point is coaching is like a huge jigsaw puzzle, some coaches are limited and can’t put the pieces together to complete the puzzle.Smith has had to work hard to get were he is, he hasn’t been fast tracked like some ex players have been and are found wanting because they haven’t developed all the coaching tools.Some have egos, others are set in their ways and can’t adapt.

Smith is very smart, he puts good people around him to make the best decisions possible for the team. He continues to improve and develop as a manager and while we will question some things tactically around the edges, he is the best set of hands for this club and long may it continue.

Edited August 23, 2021 by QldVilla

[Tomaszk]

13 minutes ago, Zatman said:

I think the Grealish thing is overplayed as well. The record is poor on paper but of the 10 defeats 2 vs Liverpool, City, United, Spurs, Leicester and away to Wolves who were challenging top 6 at time. 

Watford, Sheffield United and Palace away we shpuld have done better

Even last season the form had already dipped before he got injured

Nah, forget the results, the performances without him were very very poor in both PL and Championship.

We chucked in some rotters with him as well mind.

[sparrow1988]

2 hours ago, Zatman said:

I think its more the fact he doesn't have a fancy name or accent and has very little media profile 

I'd say the lack of a top level playing career is also a factor. Look at Lampard, and the praise when things went right and conversely, the protection when things went wrong at Derby and Chelsea. IMO Smith is a much better head coach/manager than Lampard is but, Lampard will always be more likely to get a top job.

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

Some people have a simplistic view of what coaching actually is and judge a person on the end result. Winning is an outcome, not a measurement of a coaches ability.

Smith wasn’t my choice either, not because he wasn’t a good coach, but I didn’t see the experience at PL level which was going to be required if we were promoted. He was going to have to develop as a coach by making mistakes, it was a risk the club took and besides some tough times in the first season in the PL, he and his team were able to correct.

As early as November in that first season back I was saying we were in trouble, I could see what Smith was trying to do, but for me the issue wasn’t Smith, it was the lack of PL experience with the players brought in. Some ordinary refereeing also didn’t help.

My point is coaching is like a huge jigsaw puzzle, some coaches are limited and can’t put the pieces together to complete the puzzle.Smith has had to work hard to get were he is, he hasn’t been fast tracked like some ex players have been and are found wanting because they haven’t developed all the coaching tools.Some have egos, others are set in their ways and can’t adapt.

Smith is very smart, he puts good people around him to make the best decisions possible for the team. He continues to improve and develop as a manager and while we will question some things tactically around the edges, he is the best set of hands for this club and long may it continue.

I couldn't agree more.

but this is a forum....surely we can discuss, issues we see, without resorting to turning it in to an alleged witch hunt.

Things get taken out of context, I get that, but in such circumstances its courteous to give the other person the opportunity to explain, their rationale.

 

[QldVilla]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I couldn't agree more.

but this is a forum....surely we can discuss, issues we see, without resorting to turning it in to an alleged witch hunt.

Things get taken out of context, I get that, but in such circumstances its courteous to give the other person the opportunity to explain, their rationale.

 

Wasn’t a shot at you mate, you and I agree on most things, it was more of a support post.

[DCJonah]

I think in the past there have been very rational discussions about things. Because no one thinks Smith is perfect or has never made a mistake. 

A lot of the issues tend to stem from that discussion including people who genuinely believed that if Smith did what they wanted we'd be better off. Or even in games we picked up points he should have subbed so and so when they wanted. Or they create a scenario that we might be in trouble soon or the owners will sack him if he doesn't learn how to do certain things. 

And I notice that those who share reasonable discussions regarding him are never the ones who complain that people get too defensive. 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

I'd say the lack of a top level playing career is also a factor. Look at Lampard, and the praise when things went right and conversely, the protection when things went wrong at Derby and Chelsea. IMO Smith is a much better head coach/manager than Lampard is but, Lampard will always be more likely to get a top job.

I think that is a very fair and apt observation.

Its unfair to him really, but perceptions are what they are.....given time that, may wash away and he will be appraised on his work with us. I think he is ready now to take on that challenge.

I also think Dean is very aware of the moment he is in and working half way up the championship is different to now.....He has grew with it, no doubt....but it gets more demanding.

Dean for me is not a peaks and troughs manager, he is a gradual ( slowly, slowly catch a monkey) progressive soul that has a plan....The pace of that plan might catch us out at times, hence some of my concerns about midfield....He may have his eye on a few graduates to bring through and is loathed to blunt their progress , who knows....I'm just guessing.

 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

Wasn’t a shot at you mate, you and I agree on most things, it was more of a support post.

it wasn't taken as such..just generalising.

[QldVilla]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think that is a very fair and apt observation.

Its unfair to him really, but perceptions are what they are.....given time that, may wash away and he will be appraised on his work with us. I think he is ready now to take on that challenge.

I also think Dean is very aware of the moment he is in and working half way up the championship is different to now.....He has grew with it, no doubt....but it gets more demanding.

Dean for me is not a peaks and troughs manager, he is a gradual ( slowly, slowly catch a monkey) progressive soul that has a plan....The pace of that plan might catch us out at times, hence some of my concerns about midfield....He may have his eye on a few graduates to bring through and is loathed to blunt their progress , who knows....I'm just guessing.

 

It’s a problem in general with football clubs who don’t have proper football people involved.

Very very rarely does an elite athlete in any sport, make an elite coach. Look at the appointment of the new Celtic manager, he’s Australian, he’s a nobody etc, but us who know him know what a top coach he is, even Pep is a fan and has commented on his style of play.

At the same time, this was a big appointment for him and now the Celtic fans are seeing the style/identity of play and are excited. Yes it’s a long season, he still has a lot to prove, and he will.

What it shows is that coaching is a science, some don’t get the opportunities because their background doesn’t suit a certain narrative. It’s naive.

[TRO]

57 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think in the past there have been very rational discussions about things. Because no one thinks Smith is perfect or has never made a mistake. 

A lot of the issues tend to stem from that discussion including people who genuinely believed that if Smith did what they wanted we'd be better off. Or even in games we picked up points he should have subbed so and so when they wanted. Or they create a scenario that we might be in trouble soon or the owners will sack him if he doesn't learn how to do certain things. 

And I notice that those who share reasonable discussions regarding him are never the ones who complain that people get too defensive. 

I am not even putting the "Dean isn't perfect" scenario on the table....I am not even saying he does things wrong....I have read the subs debates and I don't get involved, because basically, i don't feel strongly enough about it..

I accept things can get out of context and I accept posts can get linked, when there was no intention for them to.

I could write paragraphs on why I like Dean Smith, but when I have a point to make i.e midfield, I don't see it as important to cover myself by saying all the things I do like.....I don't like everything the Mrs does, and vice versa, but we have been married 45 years, get my point.

If someone challenges me, by saying I don't favour Dean, I will defend my stance.....if they are right, I might wither in to the background, I certainly won't be writing reams to defend myself.

I suspect, most of our discussions surround context and we have to respect, we are all wired different and thus explain things differently......but, We all want the same thing.

If I see a situation where I think Deans position could be under threat i.e not playing with recognised CBs ( hypothetical of course) I feel duty bound to raise the alarm....not saying Dean reads this or would take any notice of me....but when many make the same comments i.e Journo's it does filter through....and lets be fair Journo's pick things up from the masses/fans.

You know, I have banged the drum for a " Bissouma" or and "Ndidi"....and so far no joy, but if we keep playing well in midfield, I have to accept he is happy and if he wins games, his stance will be justified.

I don't want Dean to be under pressure from Results that would be counter productive to me.....I want him to have a relative easy life, hence my observations about said players.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by TRO

[villabromsgrove]

If "Villa Talk' is a microcosm of Villa Park on match day, then I'm sat here chuckling while recalling some of the outrageous things that I've heard shouted by those around me in the many years when I was a season ticket holder. I'd have eventually burst a blood vessel if I'd reacted to some of the lunacy that surrounded me!

Week in week out I'd hear the same advice, abuse and praise yelled by all us budding coaches (including me) and although I didn't agree with a lot of it I can't deny that it made for a very colourful and passionate atmosphere. We're all fans of the same club but we're all entitled to see and say things differently.

Manager's are always a target for both plaudits and complaints .... That's the nature of the job.

For the record I think TRO has some valid concerns especially about our ability to tighten up or control the centre of midfield, and in my opinion he has always been prepared to share his views on a broad Villa related spectrum in a polite and reasonable manner over the years.

Time will tell whether CM will remain an issue, but going forward I join TRO in wishing Dean every success this season.

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

It’s a problem in general with football clubs who don’t have proper football people involved.

Very very rarely does an elite athlete in any sport, make an elite coach. Look at the appointment of the new Celtic manager, he’s Australian, he’s a nobody etc, but us who know him know what a top coach he is, even Pep is a fan and has commented on his style of play.

At the same time, this was a big appointment for him and now the Celtic fans are seeing the style/identity of play and are excited. Yes it’s a long season, he still has a lot to prove, and he will.

What it shows is that coaching is a science, some don’t get the opportunities because their background doesn’t suit a certain narrative. It’s naive.

Elite football is a bit snobby, in as much as if the players know you have not played at a high level, what can you teach them? is the immediate view......its not my view, its theirs.

There have been some managers like Bertie Mee, Laurie McMenemy  who never played top flight football or Graham Taylor & Arsene Wenger who never played top flight.

It seems these days, more so than ever, they want a manager who they can look up to....I think the only way around that is prove yourself as a man who can win matches.

I agree with you there are many many factors to master and you never stop learning....and lets be honest here there are examples of top players, not making the transition.

I think in Deans case it is very warming to know his background and its fairly unusual to have a manager as such......For Dean to carry us on to bigger things would be most Villa fans dreams, lets be honest, he has probably done the hardest bit already.

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, villabromsgrove said:

If "Villa Talk' is a microcosm of Villa Park on match day, then I'm sat here chuckling while recalling some of the outrageous things that I've heard shouted by those around me in the many years when I was a season ticket holder. I'd have eventually burst a blood vessel if I'd reacted to some of the lunacy that surrounded me!

Week in week out I'd hear the same advice, abuse and praise yelled by all us budding coaches (including me) and although I didn't agree with a lot of it I can't deny that it made for a very colourful and passionate atmosphere. We're all fans of the same club but we're all entitled to see and say things differently.

Manager's are always a target for both plaudits and complaints .... That's the nature of the job.

For the record I think TRO has some valid concerns especially about our ability to tighten up or control the centre of midfield, and in my opinion he has always been prepared to share his views on a broad Villa related spectrum in a polite and reasonable manner over the years.

Time will tell whether CM will remain an issue, but going forward I join TRO in wishing Dean every success this season.

Thanks, and succinctly put.

I accept my concerns have maybe been over documented, and my enthusiasm for correcting such a concern has got the better of me.......so I will refrain from repeating it.

but I do think we need a CDM.....just kidding

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by TRO

[villalad21]

14-17th would be underperforming. Should be sacked end of season.

11th-12th would be the expected result and he keeps his job for me at least for another season. If he finish 11-12th the season after he should be sacked.

10th or above would be overachieving and he would have earned a new contract.

[VillaFaninLondon]

I have expressed my concerns about the manager before, I'm not denying that. I still feel he was over-reliant on Grealish and if he's to become a manager capable of taking us forward he will have to prove he can win games consistently without him. Let's be honest, a team that has Bailey, Ings, Watkins, Traore and Buendia as the attacking options with a generally solid defence and a world class GK is capable of at least midtable. Even our CM options are reasonable, even if we do lack someone fantastic in that position. 

This season if we finish between 9th and 12th that is OK. I will not be calling for Dean's head if that occurs. I still believe outside of the top four (Man C, Chelsea, Manure, Plop), Leicester and probably Spurs, we are capable of finishing above all the others. From 7th-12th, I think us, Everton, Arse, Leeds, Spam and Wolves are all fighting it out. Brighton could maybe be added to that list too. 

So anywhere from 7th-12th is acceptable, with 7th or 8th being a very good season and anything above that being a great season. I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want the manager to succeed. There are just those who believe in him less than others.

[KMitch]

38 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

14-17th would be underperforming. Should be sacked end of season.

11th-12th would be the expected result and he keeps his job for me at least for another season. If he finish 11-12th the season after he should be sacked.

10th or above would be overachieving and he would have earned a new contract.

13th means he'll have finally won villalad21 over and he'll be the new footballing messiah in his eyes, instead of Bielsa!!!

Edited August 23, 2021 by KMitch

[blandy]

On 21/08/2021 at 11:47, villalad21 said:

No, we shouldn't be happy with mid table. This isn't 2012

&

On 21/08/2021 at 12:12, villalad21 said:

Doesn't mean I would be happy with mid table.

I've said I think we have a good enough squad to finish 10th and that's where I'd like for us to finish.

I'm confused. 10th is exactly mid table - you both want us to finish there and also wouldn't be happy with finishing there.

I sometimes wonder whether people know what they want or expect from Deano.

[villalad21]

10 minutes ago, blandy said:

&

I'm confused. 10th is exactly mid table - you both want us to finish there and also wouldn't be happy with finishing there.

I sometimes wonder whether people know what they want or expect from Deano.

I'd like us to finish 10th yes because that's the highest we can hope to finish under this manager with this squad imo. I don't think they can finish any higher. Too many flaws in the squad.

I would be happy with Europe but I look at that as a pipe dream per now.