Dean Smith

[blandy]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

The problem is you can't have a grown up debate and mention the good and the suspected not so good.....without a reaction that suggests we want him out.

There are a lot of your posts that either individually or collectively appear to lean that way. I know you’ve now clarified, but posting insistently and repeatedly about what you see as serious flaws, blind spots and weaknesses and following that with we always act too late in getting rid does lead the reader towards the conclusion. Others have posted similarly. It’s fine, but it’s also perhaps why people interpret views the way they do.

[DCJonah]

Have to agree. If you're desperate to discuss and highlight his flaws, whilst also worrying about doomsday hypothetical futures, then you can't be surprised if people tend to think you'd rather Dean Smith wasn't manager. 

 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

I think a lot of it comes down how good people think are players really are.

This is an extreme example because they had an embarrassment of riches but Lampard at best could get top 4 out of them.

Tuchel comes in and they become European Champions.
 

I think Smith is doing a good job but I do sometimes wonder if a better calibre of manager could get more out of the players we have. 

[WHY]

Smith has done a good job since he has been manager but was helped considerably by Grealish, performances and results back this up. I feel it’s his time to stamp his authority on the team with his own formations and style. We’ve been very rigid with our formation due mainly down to the lack of depth in the squad. It will be interesting to see how he intends to play both Watkins and Ings in the same team. I can’t believe Tuanzebe has come to sit on the bench either, so how does he get him into the team, play 3 at the back or maybe play him as a DM? All of a sudden he has options to mix things up, will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[nick76]

I look at the squad at the beginning of last season and thought it was about 12th place.  We got 11th which was better plus at 55 points would normally gain a few higher places. That imo meant Smith and the team overachieved, so I don’t think on balance another manager would’ve squeezed anymore out of the squad hence I’m happy with Smith.

This season we’ve lost a world class talent and added some potentially really good players. I expected more from the transfer window if I’m honest but we’ve improved and imo we are about 8th or 9th level and if we end up there Smith has done well. 6th/7th exceptional, 10th/11th minimum, 12th or below would be disappointing.  

So far Smith has overachieved my expectations last season, safety was what I expected the season before and promotion exceeded my expectation the season before that.

IMO I think it’s hard to have expected anybody to have done much more than Smith has done and imo the majority would’ve done a lot worse.

Edited August 22, 2021 by nick76

[fruitvilla]

3 minutes ago, nick76 said:

So far Smith has overachieved my expectations last season,

I agree.  The interesting thing though is where does the buck actually stop? It would seem the recruitment responsibility rests with Smith, Lange and I forget someone else. The team set up is somewhat dictated by injuries and player availability/form and of course Smith's preferences. But I am sure Smith will listen to other assistant coaches and I hope the players.

The team tries to play attractive football, I thought I saw glimpses of it even in the Newcastle game.

Smith sees something in El Ghazi that I do not, having said that I don't actually see El Ghazi as a bad player per se.

And finally who is this mythical CL level manager who would leave their current position to join Villa?

Smith is doing just fine and seems to be adjusting and growing with Villa's development.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

There are a lot of your posts that either individually or collectively appear to lean that way. I know you’ve now clarified, but posting insistently and repeatedly about what you see as serious flaws, blind spots and weaknesses and following that with we always act too late in getting rid does lead the reader towards the conclusion. Others have posted similarly. It’s fine, but it’s also perhaps why people interpret views the way they do.

I can't be responsible for how folk interpret it....other than clarify my position as not wanting him out....I think we are used to each other by now Pete, if I wanted him out, I am quite capable of explaining my reasoning, even if it would naturally be unpopular.

but if I see flaws or blindspots imo....why should I be afraid to voice my opinion in fear of someone thinking it means something else......your comments above have merit, but equally dismiss those that see no wrong.....you say insistently and repeatedly, but in the main, its in reponse to those who have the opposite view....is it ok for them to insistently and repeatedly have their view.

Dean is not beyond reproach and some of the folk who might think what your suggesting, are equally as leaning towards that as I am, supposed to be opposite.

I am happy for Dean Smith to carry on as our manager, but I refute the notion that he is without criticism or observations of differing views...and when they are raised, want them shut down or repressed.

I feel I have as much right to voice my opinions on his work as those that want to unconditionally praise him.....pointing out things I would like to see done better is no grounds for assuming I want him sacked, there is a clear distinction imo........what folk glean from that is up to them, but I have repeatedly said that I happy for him to be our manager.

It just seems to me some folk get all prickly at the mere questioning of some of his stances.

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by TRO

[Zatman]

47 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think a lot of it comes down how good people think are players really are.

This is an extreme example because they had an embarrassment of riches but Lampard at best could get top 4 out of them.

Tuchel comes in and they become European Champions.
 

I think Smith is doing a good job but I do sometimes wonder if a better calibre of manager could get more out of the players we have. 

maybe but he has got more from players already than other managers did. Mings went from Bournemouth bench to Euro 2020 squad, Emi from Arsenal bench to Argentina No. 1, Luiz from City B team to a Brazil squad member. Even Grealish went from a 20 million pound player to a 100 million player

We also saw how players like Konsa, Targett, Trez and Hause have improved under him.

[Woody1000]

27 minutes ago, TRO said:

I can't be responsible for how folk interpret it....other than clarify my position as not wanting him out....I think we are used to each other by now Pete, if I wanted him out, I am quite capable of explaining my reasoning, even if it would naturally be unpopular.

but if I see flaws or blindspots imo....why should I be afraid to voice my opinion in fear of someone thinking it means something else......your comments above have merit, but equally dismiss those that see no wrong.....you say insistently and repeatedly, but in the main, its in reponse to those who have the opposite view....is it ok for them to insistently and repeatedly have their view.

Dean is not beyond reproach and some of the folk who might think what your suggesting, are equally as leaning towards that as I am.

I am happy for Dean Smith to carry on as our manager, but I refute the notion that he is without criticism or observations of differing views...and when they are raised, want them shut down or repressed.

I feel I have as much right to voice my opinions on his work as those that want to unconditionally praise him.....pointing out things I would like to see done better is no grounds for assuming I want him sacked, there is a clear distinction imo........what folk glean from that is up to them, but I have repeatedly said that I happy for him to be our manager.

It just seems to me some folk get all prickly at the mere questioning of some of his stances.

 

I really resent this notion that because I and certain other posters “see no wrong” with our manager, that we have some extreme view and do not have any criticism of him.

I cannot speak for those posters, I can only speak for myself. Do I think he’s perfect? No. Do I get frustrated with him during the game sometimes? Yes. What I have an issue with is criticism of him after the game when we have won, and the dust has settled, and criticism of where we are currently as a club when we have just had our best league finish in a decade, and best of all - criticism over things that haven’t even happened yet!

It’s not about DS being above criticism, it’s more a question of why would you want to criticise the man in the first place?

Edited August 22, 2021 by Woody1000

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I think a lot of it comes down how good people think are players really are.

This is an extreme example because they had an embarrassment of riches but Lampard at best could get top 4 out of them.

Tuchel comes in and they become European Champions.
 

I think Smith is doing a good job but I do sometimes wonder if a better calibre of manager could get more out of the players we have. 

Thats a view that can't be dismissed, Personally, I am not ready for the trade off, of the good things Dean brings to the club.....I value stability and steady progress, which Dean has brought.

What I find selective, is when someone questions the manager is the mere audacity is taken to another level and " Doomsday scenario's or lines like desperate to discuss his flaws.....isn't that like the person moaning are desperate not to discuss his flaws.

I believe in free speech and when a person voices his/her opinion that opinion can be challenged, but not the person for making it.

You make a very good point here.....even if we are ruling out any inference of Dean moving on.

 

 

[TRO]

13 hours ago, Woody1000 said:

I really resent this notion that because I and certain other posters “see no wrong” with our manager, that we have some extreme view and do not have any criticism of him.

I cannot speak for those posters, I can only speak for myself. Do I think he’s perfect? No. Do I get frustrated with him during the game sometimes? Yes. What I have an issue with is criticism of him after the game when we have won, and the dust has settled, and criticism of where we are currently as a club when we have just had our best league finish in a decade, and best of all - criticism over things that haven’t even happened yet!

It’s not about DS being above criticism, it’s more a question of why would you want to criticise the man in the first place?

Its not about seeing no wrong.....its about denying others that do.....and remember its all opinions, doesn't mean I'm right, but it means I share my opinions some agree, some don't....some heads go above parapets some don't.....if folk get miffed at my questioning Dean, don't read it....and who is accusing anyone of an extreme view, I'm certainly not....and its insane to think my questioning some of his work is extreme.

But equally, I resent folk of accusing me of wanting him out, because I am prepared to share my thoughts , when you choose to keep your certain thoughts suppressed.....if you choose to keep your frustrations to yourself thats your choice, but that is equally as gauling as someone who airs them and in some cases the points could be the same.

I was at the game and have no issues with his management on the day, in fact I voted "good" on here ,if you care to look......i think the timing of this debate is just co-incidence, it bears no relation to the principle of the debate.

But it is about him being above criticism.....but targetted criticism about certain aspects......If it was just criticism of every mortal things he does, I would get that some could think I want him out.....but I have tried to make it crystal clear as much as my English will allow me, to say, I don't Want him out.

I accept, the interpretation of my observations, have mislead some folk, but some see it as open season too....but I have tried to be clear in my thoughts.

If you see no wrong in our manager, thats down to you, but you have already said, you do, implying he is not perfect and claiming to have frustrations during games....I respectfully say, that in itself is misleading, if you choose not to share them, that is your prerogative.

I see this as a forum, where i can share views, so I will continue to share mine, if folk disagree, they have an opportunity to counter or ignore....but stick to the points being made, not the person making them.

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

Have to agree. If you're desperate to discuss and highlight his flaws, whilst also worrying about doomsday hypothetical futures, then you can't be surprised if people tend to think you'd rather Dean Smith wasn't manager. 

 

 

and then you can't be surprised when the author tells you, you're wrong in your tendencies and thoughts.

Edited August 22, 2021 by TRO

[DaveAV1]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I can't be responsible for how folk interpret it....other than clarify my position as not wanting him out....I think we are used to each other by now Pete, if I wanted him out, I am quite capable of explaining my reasoning, even if it would naturally be unpopular.

but if I see flaws or blindspots imo....why should I be afraid to voice my opinion in fear of someone thinking it means something else......your comments above have merit, but equally dismiss those that see no wrong.....you say insistently and repeatedly, but in the main, its in reponse to those who have the opposite view....is it ok for them to insistently and repeatedly have their view.

Dean is not beyond reproach and some of the folk who might think what your suggesting, are equally as leaning towards that as I am.

I am happy for Dean Smith to carry on as our manager, but I refute the notion that he is without criticism or observations of differing views...and when they are raised, want them shut down or repressed.

I feel I have as much right to voice my opinions on his work as those that want to unconditionally praise him.....pointing out things I would like to see done better is no grounds for assuming I want him sacked, there is a clear distinction imo........what folk glean from that is up to them, but I have repeatedly said that I happy for him to be our manager.

It just seems to me some folk get all prickly at the mere questioning of some of his stances.

 

I think some people have an issue with the repeated and constant criticism that Dean gets from some posters. The argument that he’s not perfect so we have the right to criticise him, wears a bit thin after hearing it repeated so many times. I think even Dean’s staunchest supporters recognise that he isn’t perfect, he’d pretty much be in a minority of one in the world if he was. However I think when people hear the same arguments against him after every set back, whether it’s anything to do with him directly or not, they get tired of it and quite naturally become defensive and offer him support. This support is usually sneered at and dismissed as blind support,  the accuser hiding behind the self title of realist.

I personally tend to keep out of here after a defeat because the over the top, almost vitriolic, certainly disrespectful, comments made by some posters, not yourself in regard to anything vitriolic, but overall this place is now toxic at those times. I find it all the more baffling that this toxicity is aimed at a) our manager and b) even more incredible a man who’s support and dedication to the club cannot seriously be questioned. That of course doesn’t except him from criticism. Yes there is room for improvement and some performances can be poor, but the level of criticism and the constant nature of it is often way over the top. Posts that start with a caveat along the lines, I love Dean but.....then go on to be a long diatribe of criticism and negativity are often as ridiculous in their severity as they are predictable. We know Dean has faults because we are reminded of them on an almost daily basis. 

I must say though TRO, after your stoic, almost heroic support of Steve Bruce, your now almost constant criticism of Dean Smith is all the more baffling. It’s just a shame you can’t find even 10% of the support you gave to our former manager for our present one. But that’s entirely your opinion, which like everyone else, you have the right to hold. 

[villalad21]

Main thing we need to see is him improving in his in game management. 

Need to be quicker to react before things go wrong. 

If we go behind in games most the time we just lose. So he doesn't seem to have a plan b

Late subs has become a meme at this point but it is a weak point in Smith. As a top manager you need to have the ability to read a game. Have the ability to sense and anticipate when you are starting losing a hold of the game and make changes before the inevitable happens. The so called reactive vs pro active 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, fruitvilla said:

I agree.  The interesting thing though is where does the buck actually stop? It would seem the recruitment responsibility rests with Smith, Lange and I forget someone else. The team set up is somewhat dictated by injuries and player availability/form and of course Smith's preferences. But I am sure Smith will listen to other assistant coaches and I hope the players.

The team tries to play attractive football, I thought I saw glimpses of it even in the Newcastle game.

Smith sees something in El Ghazi that I do not, having said that I don't actually see El Ghazi as a bad player per se.

And finally who is this mythical CL level manager who would leave their current position to join Villa?

Smith is doing just fine and seems to be adjusting and growing with Villa's development.

so far, I haven't seen anyone who has said they want him out, but the defence of his tenure goes on....even reitterating to the converted that he should carry on.....

This mountain has turned from the mole hill about midfield and blown in to a false narrative.

[TRO]

51 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I think some people have an issue with the repeated and constant criticism that Dean gets from some posters. The argument that he’s not perfect so we have the right to criticise him, wears a bit thin after hearing it repeated so many times. I think even Dean’s staunchest supporters recognise that he isn’t perfect, he’d pretty much be in a minority of one in the world if he was. However I think when people hear the same arguments against him after every set back, whether it’s anything to do with him directly or not, they get tired of it and quite naturally become defensive and offer him support. This support is usually sneered at and dismissed as blind support,  the accuser hiding behind the self title of realist.

I personally tend to keep out of here after a defeat because the over the top, almost vitriolic, certainly disrespectful, comments made by some posters, not yourself in regard to anything vitriolic, but overall this place is now toxic at those times. I find it all the more baffling that this toxicity is aimed at a) our manager and b) even more incredible a man who’s support and dedication to the club cannot seriously be questioned. That of course doesn’t except him from criticism. Yes there is room for improvement and some performances can be poor, but the level of criticism and the constant nature of it is often way over the top. Posts that start with a caveat along the lines, I love Dean but.....then go on to be a long diatribe of criticism and negativity are often as ridiculous in their severity as they are predictable. We know Dean has faults because we are reminded of them on an almost daily basis. 

I must say though TRO, after your stoic, almost heroic support of Steve Bruce, your now almost constant criticism of Dean Smith is all the more baffling. It’s just a shame you can’t find even 10% of the support you gave to our former manager for our present one. But that’s entirely your opinion, which like everyone else, you have the right to hold. 

but that is simply false Dave.....lets get this straight once and for all....and by the way, this has started after a win, That we are all happy with.

Steve Bruce.....

I was grateful to him for stopping the glut of goals we conceded before he arrived, I was grateful for John McGinn which was a good signing.....his final season despite his unfortunate personal tragedies, I wanted him gone, so this mythical stance That I am all for Steve Bruce was another false accusation......where I defended him was against vitriolic abuse and that includes cabbages, which I hope I never see again to humiliate any of our future managers.

Dean Smith.....

I am seriously struggling here, because I literally have no criticism of the progress of our team under his tutelage.. in fact he has progressed season on season and keeping us up was probably his hardest feat.

However, I do see a need to be more robust in midfield and my comments on that are well documented, if that miffs people, don't read it.....because others say similar things and go under the radar.

Dean has his way of playing and certian bits are not always to my liking ....but I accept that is unlikely to change and if we keep winning, maybe I will.

 

This ding dong has come about because, my reaction to Peter Griffins post was to support his view and in doing so, mentioned midfield.....that reached a crescendo where I am being accused of labouring that point when in fact my time has been spent reacting to posts, where I have defended that stance and the accusations that I want Dean out....which is false.

The 2 scenarios between Dean and Steve are not even close..... 2 entirely different stances.

You know how many posts we've agreed on Dave, I don't have to remind you....so don't be drawn on the false narrative.

I am quite capable of explaining myself, and if there is still doubt, I can go over it again......but some don't want that, they want to believe, what they believe.

rightly or wrongly, my mistake was answering the all the adverse reactions, because it appears, I am labouring the same point, when thats false too....i am defending the one point.

go through all my posts the only issue i have with Dean is midfield and I was encouraged with that on Saturday with McGinn, Luiz and Ramsey making a good account of themselves.

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by TRO

[RadioTom]

40 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

Main thing we need to see is him improving in his in game management. 

Need to be quicker to react before things go wrong. 

If we go behind in games most the time we just lose. So he doesn't seem to have a plan b

Late subs has become a meme at this point but it is a weak point in Smith. As a top manager you need to have the ability to read a game. Have the ability to sense and anticipate when you are starting losing a hold of the game and make changes before the inevitable happens. The so called reactive vs pro active 

You seem to be forgetting last week’s game, when he made all three subs by the 72nd minute. 
 

The thing you - and other posters who bang about with the same points *over and over again* - seem to forget, is we haven’t had the strength in depth to make quick, decisive changes to massively influence the game. That’s a long process and this isn’t Football Manager on Editor Mode. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

yeah

It's the profile pic mate...

[villalad21]

6 minutes ago, RadioTom said:

You seem to be forgetting last week’s game, when he made all three subs by the 72nd minute. 
 

The thing you - and other posters who bang about with the same points *over and over again* - seem to forget, is we haven’t had the strength in depth to make quick, decisive changes to massively influence the game. That’s a long process and this isn’t Football Manager on Editor Mode. 

Yeah. Too bad the damage was already done by then. At that point we were already 3-0 down 

I'm talking about being more pro active. Anticipating your team losing the control of a game and changing/correcting it quickly before the inevitable happens. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by villalad21

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It's the profile pic mate...

just about sums it up though.