Dean Smith

[hippo]

2 hours ago, Zatman said:

Only one person has ever mentioned that Henry was wanted by our board and that was you and have repeated multiple times  

Southampton were also in Premier League when made the changes

Really ? 

I was pretty sure it was reported in all the national press - and probably most regular posters on here.

 

[hippo]

2 hours ago, useless said:

Henry to Villa was just paper talk, when the papers were saying that we wanted him Smith had already had his interview. The papers were also linking us to Ralph Hasenhüttl, Paulo Fonseca and Rui Faria, but these names never get brought up when disccusing our owners ability to spot a good manager, the truth is were in the championship and part way through the season with a depleted squad that looked like it had little chance of promotion, so of course then it would have been hard to attract a bigger name.

Yep - I don't doubt it was hard - it will probably be just as difficult after relegation.

However to progress we need to be able to do difficult things. We could be sitting here in 10 years saying how difficult it is to attract a top manager. 

It's probably easier though than trying to rise through the divisions with a sub standard manager in place.

 

[avfc1982am]

20 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Maybe I'm just massively wrong, but I don't understand why people can't see how much stronger our position would be if we went down this time compared to last time

Because Stevo you still have to replace our better players with players that, A) Will get us promoted. B.) Will keep us up.

Your only in a better position if you make the right decisions..I don't see any examples that Smith is going to also improve  the current squad to a level of competency that can cut it at PL either. Even f he was to get us promoted again. And that is a big if with the loses of personnel we will suffer potentially.

TBH personally I've seen enough this season to suggest Smith is as out of his depth at this level as some of the players are.  

[Stevo985]

Just now, avfc1982am said:

Because Stevo you still have to replace our better players with players that, A) Will get us promoted. B.) Will keep us up.

Your only in a better position if you make the right decisions..I don't see any examples that Smith is going to also improve  the current squad to a level of competency that can cut it at PL either. Even f he was to get us promoted again. And that is a big if with the loses of personnel we will suffer potentially.

TBH personally I've seen enough this season to suggest Smith is as out of his depth at this level as some of the players are.  

And we'll have an absolute fortune at that level to replace those players. Obviously we have to make the right decisions, but that will be far easier at that level. In the Prem we had to look for relative bargains and replace an entire squad.

In the Championship we'd have to replace 2 or 3 big players, with a relative fortune at that level. 

 

Again if we then got promoted after a season we'd have a far more settled squad, and manager, than we did this season. Our downfall this season was having to buy an almost entirely new squad. That wouldn't happen next time if we got promoted quickly

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

@TRO you'll be at Dyche's throat after six months in the job.

We'll be losing games in the Championship and doing nothing but kick it long and in the air. Actually...you liked that before Smith arrived I seem to recall 

Also, there's a team of about 10 analysts who at Liverpool who buy the players, Klopp doesn't do it. He may have a choice between two they give him, but he doesn't identify any players himself.

• You didn't read my posts correctly regarding Bruce, where i made a clear reference to not liking his cautious style, but that does not fit your narrative does it?
• As for Dyche a totally hypothetical claim, based on nothing.
• I simpley don't believe that Klopp has no input in to new recruits, perhaps he has people who do the mundane work, but he would need to control things....managers of that stature always do.

[Tomaszk]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

• You didn't read my posts correctly regarding Bruce, where i made a clear reference to not liking his cautious style, but that does not fit your narrative does it?
• As for Dyche a totally hypothetical claim, based on nothing.
• I simpley don't believe that Klopp has no input in to new recruits, perhaps he has people who do the mundane work, but he would need to control things....managers of that stature always do.

Recommended reading sir

Mundane, oh my no, it's not 1982 I'm afraid.

The reason Salah, Mane and Klopp are at Liverpool is all the work of the analysis team.

Makes sense, why would you have a manager who spends all his time coaching to find players in his spare time?

[avfc1982am]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

And we'll have an absolute fortune at that level to replace those players. Obviously we have to make the right decisions, but that will be far easier at that level. In the Prem we had to look for relative bargains and replace an entire squad.

In the Championship we'd have to replace 2 or 3 big players, with a relative fortune at that level. 

 

Again if we then got promoted after a season we'd have a far more settled squad, and manager, than we did this season. Our downfall this season was having to buy an almost entirely new squad. That wouldn't happen next time if we got promoted quickly

I do respect your opinion as I do find you are pretty balanced.. Your being a little optimistic imo. The board and Smith have already shown they all misinterpreted the requirements this season, not just from a physical point of view. But from a character point of view with regards to the transfers. Your also expecting the board to go bam! Spend all the Grealish dough and all will be well....They may say no. Craic on with what you have and bring the kids through. Who knows?! We could be looking at another 2-3 years dependent on the level of upheaval amongst the squad also. From what I gather it isn't all roses behind the scenes.  

I wasn't taken with the Smith appointment but have been behind him most of the way as we all generally have. I really wanted to see him succeed at stabilising us this year or at least have us putting the stops out to stay in the PL. What I think now though is that he is not cut for this level. It bothers me that he won't learn from mistakes because he hasn't all season. The team have regressed, not progressed as the season has unfolded. TBH I'm pretty pissed off with the way this has all played out up to this point. Take no notice, I'm anti Manager, coaches and board at the mo. Losers the lost of them!     

[Tomaszk]

3 hours ago, messi11 said:

Image if Dean Smith keeps us up and achieved this in his first full season:

1) Promotion 
2) 1 Cup Final
3) Kept Villa in the Premier League 

 

Shame on you for wanting him gone

Has villa21 got a new account here?

[TRO]

2 hours ago, VillaCas said:

- as I said Smith is not Klopp, Guardiola or Mourinho - had he insisted on total control he wouldn’t be in the job. Like the vast majority of PL managers including those you mention, he has to work within a structure

- show me where I ‘divided the £140m equally”? I didn’t!  I merely said £140m across 15 players does not buy you a PL squad

 - I guess a lot of your next point rest on what you mean by ‘very high reputations’ and ‘well rated’, personally I’d never heard of them and have not been at all impressed. For me these were not players who were going to hit the ground running in the PL

...but if we go with your ‘highly-rated’ line then how has DS been ‘stuffed up like a turkey’ if they are such great talents

By your reckoning he is either underachieving with good players or not been strong enough rejecting bad players....which is it - you can’t have both sides of the argument

- I would expect a serial winner (Klopp?, Guardiola? Mourinho?) to get more out of our players - those managers are with top clubs because they are at the top of the tree - those managers ain’t coming to Villa anytime soon

- finally, DS must bear some of the responsibility but in terms of recruitment the lions share sits with Suso

The biggest part of the problem is that we overachieved last season - we came up with Bruce’s ageing and unbalanced squad and needed to make far more changes than is optimum. I was delighted to get promoted but realised that in the long run it may have been better to come up a year later with a better prepared and more balanced squad.

As it is we will probably go down but I hope that lessons have been learned and we will build a much more balanced and competent squad for our next assault on the Premier League

 

 

• Firstly I was answering your claim........."the manager is no longer all-powerful".....and I cited 3 examples  who (imo) are.......I never mentioned Smith. you did in your second post.
• secondly I think the £140 mill which is huge sum, could have been spent better, despite having so much to replace.....at the time most fans were excited at the prospect, 
• thirdly Wesley was an early signing for us intimating a stealthy swoop and most folk were excited at the prospect.....what we learned later was different.....There was no one decaring that Luiz and Wes would not hit the ground running, most folk was purring over 2 brazilians
• Fourth....When I said "Stuffed up like a turkey" it was a reference to how they have turned out, however Luiz has been encouraging since the lockdown, but I am not privvy to who he scouted and who he didn't in preseason.
• fifth.... No I think, its a bit of both......I have a suspicion he could have got more out of them, in fact many were better at the start of the season.......how good they really are, not sure.
• sixth.....There, I will say it again....I have made no reference to that line that they are likely to come to us or compared them to smith, thats you answering your own readings.
• I cannot comprehend a situation today or in the past, where a manager is not anyway responsible for the signings that a club makes, in light of his clear responsibilities for team results.
• I am a great believer in a " Bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" so I was pleased we come up, there are few guarantees in this game, take your chances, when you can,I say.....Bruce's squad  probably featured the main players that got us up in Tammy ,SJM and Jack ( as a developed player)....In fact Dean, was magnanimous at Wembley to say 2 of Bruces signings scored, very noble gesture to a fellow pro.
• I too think we will go down.....I am just hoping for a miracle turn of form, it is still possible, but highly unlikely.

I wouldn't like to speculate what the future holds, but I do not think the championship is an easy league to get out of.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

Recommended reading sir

Mundane, oh my no, it's not 1982 I'm afraid.

The reason Salah, Mane and Klopp are at Liverpool is all the work of the analysis team.

Makes sense, why would you have a manager who spends all his time coaching to find players in his spare time?

It was interesting to read, but it is unlikely Ian Graham will be able to keep all that to himself.....me not knowing if many other clubs are doing much the same....but the must be plenty of aspiring data scientists who fancy a blast in football.

Any industry finds it hard to secure trade secrets, if that's what you are implying, that its unique to Liverpool......it won't be long before everyone, will have an Ian Graham, if we haven't already.....Data analytics has a place no doubt, how much store is put in to it is anyones guess.

It seems that Klopp did ok before he discovered Ian Graham.

I think many many factors surround a serial winner and no doubt Data Analytics is one, albeit relatively new.....I would suspect many peripheral people at Liverpool and other successful clubs,who use it, will claim a bit of the action and will also make a very intellectual case for it.

Personally, I have mixed feelings towards its ability to sustain a long period of advantage.....if everyone uses it, it will be back to the status quo.

I wonder what Cloughie would think of it?

[Mjvilla]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

It was interesting to read, but it is unlikely Ian Graham will be able to keep all that to himself.....me not knowing if many other clubs are doing much the same....but the must be plenty of aspiring data scientists who fancy a blast in football.

Any industry finds it hard to secure trade secrets, if that's what you are implying, that its unique to Liverpool......it won't be long before everyone, will have an Ian Graham, if we haven't already.....Data analytics has a place no doubt, how much store is put in to it is anyones guess.

It seems that Klopp did ok before he discovered Ian Graham.

I think many many factors surround a serial winner and no doubt Data Analytics is one, albeit relatively new.....I would suspect many peripheral people at Liverpool and other successful clubs,who use it, will claim a bit of the action and will also make a very intellectual case for it.

Personally, I have mixed feelings towards its ability to sustain a long period of advantage.....if everyone uses it, it will be back to the status quo.

I wonder what Cloughie would think of it?

Why does that matter? The game has moved a long way from 'cloughie'. Not doubting his achievements, of course, but I do wonder how successful he would be in this day and age, however. We can speculate but would never know. 

I think data analytics is far more prevalent in the game than you realise, perhaps. None of us work at a coaching level or senior level of a football club. None of us can fairly comment on the way clubs do transfer business. 

Back in the day of 'cloughie', I'm sure the manager had all the say. It's not like that anymore. I'm not saying that Smith would have no say, more it would be a committee decision based on a all the scout reports, opinions of people and analytics available. Obviously far more complex than I'm making it seem.

Football is a completely different animal from those days, it's moved along way. I think some posters need to follow suit.

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Mjvilla

[Villan_of_oz]

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

And we'll have an absolute fortune at that level to replace those players. Obviously we have to make the right decisions, but that will be far easier at that level. In the Prem we had to look for relative bargains and replace an entire squad.

In the Championship we'd have to replace 2 or 3 big players, with a relative fortune at that level. 

 

Again if we then got promoted after a season we'd have a far more settled squad, and manager, than we did this season. Our downfall this season was having to buy an almost entirely new squad. That wouldn't happen next time if we got promoted quickly

I don't understand how people can't or won't understand this....

[sharkyvilla]

2 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

Why does that matter? The game has moved a long way from 'cloughie'. Not doubting his achievements, of course, but I do wonder how successful he would be in this day and age, however. We can speculate but would never know. 

I think data analytics is far more prevalent in the game than you realise, perhaps. None of us work at a coaching level or senior level of a football club. None of us can fairly comment on the way clubs do transfer business. 

Back in the day of 'cloughie', I'm sure the manager had all the say. It's not like that anymore. I'm not saying that Smith would have no say, more it would be a committee decision based on a all the scout reports, opinions of people and analytics available. Obviously far more complex than I'm making it seem.

Football is a completely different animal from those days, it's moved along way. I think some posters need to follow suit.

 

Exactly, the entire world is open to clubs now, they can sign players from pretty much any background and to expect a manager to watch and analyse that many players is unrealistic.  We seem to have a mixed transfer strategy where Dean and Suso suggested players (4 for every position iirc), then they try and pick out the best value and most likely to actually be signable.  Regarding Clough, he got an established club that had been in the top division for 15 years relegated in the first season of the modern Premier League era, Smith might get us relegated in our first year back.  It's all about context and seems hard for lots of people to grasp.

[VillaCas]

5 hours ago, TRO said:

• Firstly I was answering your claim........."the manager is no longer all-powerful".....and I cited 3 examples  who (imo) are.......I never mentioned Smith. you did in your second post.
• secondly I think the £140 mill which is huge sum, could have been spent better, despite having so much to replace.....at the time most fans were excited at the prospect, 
• thirdly Wesley was an early signing for us intimating a stealthy swoop and most folk were excited at the prospect.....what we learned later was different.....There was no one decaring that Luiz and Wes would not hit the ground running, most folk was purring over 2 brazilians
• Fourth....When I said "Stuffed up like a turkey" it was a reference to how they have turned out, however Luiz has been encouraging since the lockdown, but I am not privvy to who he scouted and who he didn't in preseason.
• fifth.... No I think, its a bit of both......I have a suspicion he could have got more out of them, in fact many were better at the start of the season.......how good they really are, not sure.
• sixth.....There, I will say it again....I have made no reference to that line that they are likely to come to us or compared them to smith, thats you answering your own readings.
• I cannot comprehend a situation today or in the past, where a manager is not anyway responsible for the signings that a club makes, in light of his clear responsibilities for team results.
• I am a great believer in a " Bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush" so I was pleased we come up, there are few guarantees in this game, take your chances, when you can,I say.....Bruce's squad  probably featured the main players that got us up in Tammy ,SJM and Jack ( as a developed player)....In fact Dean, was magnanimous at Wembley to say 2 of Bruces signings scored, very noble gesture to a fellow pro.
• I too think we will go down.....I am just hoping for a miracle turn of form, it is still possible, but highly unlikely.

I wouldn't like to speculate what the future holds, but I do not think the championship is an easy league to get out of.

Sorry TRO you jump around so much that I’m losing track - I think you are now arguing with yourself

- You said (I’m paraphrasing) ‘top managers are all-powerful and Smith is not’. As has been pointed out by a number of posters here even Klopp etc have to work within a structure - if your argument is that top managers have more power than novice managers then I would (of course) agree however, Smith is nearer to the novice end than the top end

- secondly it goes without saying that £140m could have been spent better - we are not arguing about that. We were discussing how much blame should go to Suso and how much to Smith - my argument was that Suso should take the lions share of blame (but that Smith is not blameless)

- thirdly. I’m not sure what point you are making here? It doesn’t seem to be in response to my post. Like mostly everyone I was unaware of Wesley and Luis but excited to see them play - I did however preach caution and predicted that a 17th place finish would be great achievement this year ( I quoted my post from July 2019 saying exactly this a few pages back)

- four??

- five??

- six - you said (again I paraphrase) ‘a serial winner would get more out of these players’. This is a truism - of course I agree but I pointed out that we are not (yet) in a position to appoint a ‘serial winner’ (like Klopp etc)

- seven, I never once claimed that ‘a manager is not anyway responsible for the signings that a club makes’ - we were arguing how much responsibility he bears. Again my point was that Suso main job is player acquisition and Smith is player performance

- eighth! As I said ‘ I was delighted to get promoted’  You seem to think we have a different opinion on this?

- I agree that should we go down it will almost certainly be a real battle to get back up - however personally I would back Smith to try to achieve this (unless a proven serial winner is available )

To get back to the crux of the argument our main bones of contention seem to be 1) How  good a squad has £140m bought? 2) How much responsibility does the manager bear for signings? and 3) Has the manager got the best out of his players?

My answers are 1) very average 2) some, but the main responsibility sits with the DofF and 3) He’s done ok, could have done better (but in the biggest part this question rests with your view of 1))

TRO, I think for both our sanities shall we agree to disagree and spend our energies sending positive vibes for the rest of the season?

[mikeyp102]

7 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

 From what I gather it isn't all roses behind the scenes.  

 

Why what have you heard?

[Blasterpocket68]

6 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

Why does that matter? The game has moved a long way from 'cloughie'. Not doubting his achievements, of course, but I do wonder how successful he would be in this day and age, however. We can speculate but would never know. 

I think data analytics is far more prevalent in the game than you realise, perhaps. None of us work at a coaching level or senior level of a football club. None of us can fairly comment on the way clubs do transfer business. 

Back in the day of 'cloughie', I'm sure the manager had all the say. It's not like that anymore. I'm not saying that Smith would have no say, more it would be a committee decision based on a all the scout reports, opinions of people and analytics available. Obviously far more complex than I'm making it seem.

Football is a completely different animal from those days, it's moved along way. I think some posters need to follow suit.

 

How Disrespectful

Villa Talk is for sharing opinions about the club we all support! 

Is football really that different?

11 Players 

1 ball 

score goals

All the rubbish  surrounding the game has changed and most unfortunately people have no respect and tolerance for other peoples views and opinions! 

 

[Rolta]

57 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said:

Why what have you heard?

Bet it's literally a tweet. Or someone read a tweet and told him what was on the tweet. Or someone saw Purslow and Smith talking together on the TV and then told him.

Apologies to avfc1982 but I think a lot of people have a bullshit alert when it comes to 'from what I gather...' type posts.

[Zatman]

55 minutes ago, Blasterpocket68 said:

How Disrespectful

Villa Talk is for sharing opinions about the club we all support! 

Is football really that different?

11 Players 

1 ball 

score goals

All the rubbish  surrounding the game has changed and most unfortunately people have no respect and tolerance for other peoples views and opinions! 

 

Without going into most your other points but football is completely different than when we won the league last time. Football is completely different than 2000. MON was allowing his players to smoke and drink before big games to calm them down. Klopp or Guardiola would be fuming if Henderson or De Bruyne wanted a calming smoke and a pint before a game. 

Everything has changed from fitness, to tactics to equipment and social media. Brian Clough wouldnt have had same success, he would be Roy Keane sitting in a studio criticizing the modern game. 

[DaveAV1]

22 minutes ago, Zatman said:

Klopp or Guardiola would be fuming

What before the game!!??

[MotoMkali]

9 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

I do respect your opinion as I do find you are pretty balanced.. Your being a little optimistic imo. The board and Smith have already shown they all misinterpreted the requirements this season, not just from a physical point of view. But from a character point of view with regards to the transfers. Your also expecting the board to go bam! Spend all the Grealish dough and all will be well....They may say no. Craic on with what you have and bring the kids through. Who knows?! We could be looking at another 2-3 years dependent on the level of upheaval amongst the squad also. From what I gather it isn't all roses behind the scenes.  

I wasn't taken with the Smith appointment but have been behind him most of the way as we all generally have. I really wanted to see him succeed at stabilising us this year or at least have us putting the stops out to stay in the PL. What I think now though is that he is not cut for this level. It bothers me that he won't learn from mistakes because he hasn't all season. The team have regressed, not progressed as the season has unfolded. TBH I'm pretty pissed off with the way this has all played out up to this point. Take no notice, I'm anti Manager, coaches and board at the mo. Losers the lost of them!     

Ffp has been waived. Next season is the season to invest money into a club. If the owners don't spend 100 million plus it is unlikely that they are serious about investing in the club for the future. That is not including any money we get from grealish.