Dean Smith

[hippo]

20 minutes ago, romavillan said:

I can't think of any logical basis to sack the man that got us to the final completely unexpectedly in the first place? Or would you have preferred a heroic loss to Leicester as a different stick to beat Smith with? 

I understand people are getting irte, but personally if you expected anything other than a relegation scrap this year you were deluded. A relegation scrap by definition means struggling most weeks to get anything out of games. It measn being one of the shitter teams in the league. Why more people weren't mentally ready for this is beyond me. I think the board knew exactly that the mission for this year was 17th, they will have known full well that a decent player at this level costs north of £25m these days and we needed MORE than a whole teams worth and had £150m to spend. 

Sacking Smith would be a terrible decision, sacking Smith if we get relegated would be a bad decision too, as then essentially you're sacking him for getting us promoted a season too soon. If we do go down we will need consistency from the top to try and keep the best of the group together and rebuild to come straight back up. This time without a 38 player turnover to handle at the same time. 

I'm sorta neutral on sacking Smith - my point was that should the board be forced into such a position whose confident they can land a decent manager.

His weakness wherever he has been is the goals against column.....that's what he has turn around....be it this season or next.

[Laughable Chimp]

8 minutes ago, nick76 said:

We looked alright against Leicester in the semi 2nd leg and Spurs last week.  Yesterday was a shocker I grant you but Leicester we beat, and Spurs, if it wasn’t for a major error at the end by Engels we would’ve got a draw against a good team.

Did we really though? We were dominated for large chunks of the game and Nyland had to pull off several insane saves to keep us in the game. I don't think we played that well against Leicester, we were just a bit lucky.

As for the Spurs game, we looked great for like 17 minuutes in between a lucky own goal(which people somehow neglect to mention when talking about our performance that game) and the Spurs equalizer. We were absolutely dominated for the rest of the match yet through a combination of luck we nicked another goal and somehow conceded only another one before the Engels mistake despite conceding dangerous chance after dangerous chance to the Spurs attack.

We didn't look alright against them imo. We were lucky, it happens in a match. Lets just ignore the goals for a bit and look ask whether we were truly the equal to the team we faced that night? I don't think we were. I don't think we've been overall superior to another team we've faced for a long time now as well and that's worries me the most about our team. We're not just not getting results, we're playing badly, and the few good results we've somehow able to gain over the past 2 months have papered over that.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Laughable Chimp

[M_Afro]

3 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I don't see that. Any club that got promoted at the end of May with a squad full of players either on loan, past their use by date at the level they would now be playing at or who were simply never going to be good enough for that level. Who then had 10 weeks to assemble a squad to be competitive, had to undertake a turnover of 30+ players and due to FFP had to bring in 12 players for an average of 11 mill a piece, not a lot unfortunately at Prem level. I don't see many, if any, clubs that with all of the above then found itself 27 games into the season out of the bottom 3 and in a major cup final sacking its manager.

The cup final is an anomaly. We didn’t play a single first team match until the semi final and then we were very lucky to beat Leicester in the semi. Add to that City will absolutely destroy us next week.

We are out of the bottom 3, just! We have just had our easy run of fixtures though with incredibly difficult ones to come. It is almost impossible to see us finishing outside of the bottom 3 now, come the end of the season. I think we will finish 19th and be some way adrift of safety.

We are also not improving. I thought we may improve as the season elapsed but we are getting worse. I just can’t see the plan. He tries to play in a manner that really does not suit our players. 

[Dave-R]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I think the mistakes Dave are borne out of a team under constant pressure, you only have to see how many shots opposing teams muster against us, it makes you wonder how we have managed to keep it down to 52.

Yes I agree with you, we always concede more when we are against our goal for long periods. I'd say for those games where were being clearly dominated we have in fact done rather well to not of let tripple the scoreline against us in. There is only so much we can do to not let a couple of goals in, what is frustrating about all season is our Coach and players do not seem to learn. If our Coach learned he would of done everything and anything to stop the conceding instead he's stuck to his guns, kept his formation which has screwed us up massively. Our players while being given instructions to play 3-4-3 Have gone out and done the best they could but pushing so high we should always of left someone like Nakamba who is clearly fast to chase down over the top balls which have threatened us to no end. Our players have not learnt one bit to deal with teams out possessing us.

We seem to be in a very nasty position by the fact we seem unable to learn and evolve. Adapting to possession based teams is a challange we seem unable to grasp and control and id say its partially due to quality and the right mentality in our players and the other has to do with Coaching, style and how were passing the ball about.

At the moment after the Southampton game TRO, I am far from impressed with Smith and our players. We were clearly dominated to the point I thought our players were calling Southampton DOMINA and we had a place in a ludus to where we could of been used for just about anything. That's how bad it feels it's gotten, that we could have a part in spartacus and were the slaves trying to break free of our roman masters in this league.

We all keep saying something has to change, unfortunately Smith has to get with the program and realise if he doesn't have the people then realise that and play something we can play. I've Supported Smith as you have but enough is enough I'm afraid when it's all getting worse because he's being stubborn to change. Change right now is what we need, it's bad enough we didn't strengthen our midfield and winger positions over January, we have no choice but to change and if he doesn't change to something better then he will be done for me.

AEG is an example of the type of player I thought we had honestly seen the last of when we got rid of Kodjia. What Ghazi did made me feel sick that I would now if I were Smith, take him out the first eleven and play Borja or someone more deserving of a first team place. ayers need to be held accountable for there actions and i felt Tyrones frustration with Ghazi, in fact atthis moment in time i do not want Ghazi playing for us.

Which brings me to the next bit. As others have said there seems to be a rose picture being painted at Villa. Things sure look good on the outside but are they really, there seems to be problems within and there have been a few problems pop up to suggest that players are not doing as they are told. All this mentality and right attitude talk by us all lately in this forum and for all we know and what we've seen from a couple of players recently  makes you wonder is that really what were getting at villa. 

Lots of questions for sure, just no answers and when the answers come are they the real answers which is another question is it not. It's starting to be a real depressing thing at Villa this season, and they all need to quell whatever is going on at Villa and sort it, or were back to making things much harder for ourselves again.

It's a shame because when we won the playoffs we looked to of turned ourselves away from all the rubbish and brought back some goodness at Villa, now it's kept back in it seems.

[HanoiVillan]

13 hours ago, sne said:

I'm pragmatic about these things. Smith did fantastic with us last season and this season is all about staying up and laying a foundation for future seasons. So far we are possibly doing that, if only just and I'm uncertain if any foundation has been laid. We look disjointed and very green still.

And while the revival last season was fantastic I always feared that the PL might be a step too high for Smith, or at least a year or 2 too soon. Having a inexperienced (at this level) backroom staff (Terry obviously experienced as a player) also doesn't help. 

Almost all our issues stem from the way the club was run before Smith came here leading to us having to throw a PL ready squad together from almost nothing during a very short period of time this summer. There is no getting around that. And the squad we ended up with is frankly not good enough. Understandable but unfortunate. Some of the signing will and are coming good, some others I don't think have what it takes. 

As for Smith? I'm not at the point of getting rid for the sake of it, and certainly not at anyone would be better. But if the right candidate is out there I'd be OK with that.

Same thing in the summer, even if we manage to stay up. There are loads of better managers out there, just like there are loads of players out there better than what we have. If we can attract a higher level manager then I think we should go for it. I don't care much for the "he deserve to stay on" argument. 

If we are relegated then it all comes down to the mental state of Smith and the players. I don't feel he should get the sack just because we are relegated, it was always a very likely scenario. But, does he feel he has what it takes to do it all again, and do the player have faith in him? Terry no doubt will be off if we go down, and I think we should have a more experienced assistant anyway.

 

Great post, sums up my feelings exactly as well.

[maqroll]

On 22/02/2020 at 18:21, Laughable Chimp said:

Norwich total transfer expenses: 8million

Aston Villa transfer expenses: 143million

NDAFT

[The Hawk]

12 hours ago, ozvilla28 said:

Problem is were getting worse by the week and yesterday we weren't competitive that's the bad part. We look unorganized and all over the place his the manager the buck stops with him.You look at Sheffield United how organised they a  spend peanuts.For some reason people keep talking about promotion etc that's gone now take the romance out of the Smith situation focus on the present.Smith would be gone if he was at another club fullstop.

Right, so it’s the monetary value of transfers that dictates how organised a team is? Nothing to do with the team having years and years under the one manager to build a cohesive system? 
 

Unreal how some people keep bringing up the “we spent more than the other two promoted sides” argument without paying any respect to the fact that we needed to rebuild an entire squad whilst they did not.

Edited February 24, 2020 by The Hawk

[ozvilla28]

4 hours ago, The Hawk said:

Right, so it’s the monetary value of transfers that dictates how organised a team is? Nothing to do the team having years and years under the one manager to build a cohesive system? 
 

Unreal how some people keep bringing up the “we spent more than the other two promoted sides” argument without paying any respect to the fact that we needed to rebuild an entire squad whilst they did not.

So your saying the mistakes happening weekly getting worse by the games is because we haven't had years under our manager unlike Sheffield United.That's a weake exuse even a amature side can get the organisation right and can cut the school boy errors that atleast is the basics in football you should have or else shouldn't be in the game.That doesn't take years under a manager.

Yeah we spent big out of the promotion clubs no way near we should be as bad as we a some signings have been bad.Like I said you can't even say we look organised or do the basics correct.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by ozvilla28

[HanoiVillan]

14 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

That's roughly an average rate these days for players in those positions and at our level. Look at Joelinton at Newcastle. He cost 40mill and he has scored 1 goal in 27 matches and he's started every game nearly. Haller is the same at West Ham also 40mill. City are buying full backs for 50 million a pop. Of course there is value to be had in the transfer market but it's getting harder and harder to find it. What did Palace pay for Benteke? Maupay for Brighton scored his first goal in two months yesterday and cost roughly the same as Wes and has roughly the same strike rate of 1 in 4. 

If we finish 17th then it's money well spent as far as I am concerned. We can build upon this in the summer, not like last summer where we could only put the foundations in place. All hanging on staying up of course.

 

13 hours ago, TRO said:

Look at Coutinho when he went to Liverpool @ 8.5 mill......Look at Kompany he was c 8 Mill.......john McGinn @ 2.75.........Pukki @Free.....John Fleck@free

There are loads of modest signings, litter the Prem....its about square pegs in square holes etc and its questionable if we have done that.

.....what we spent was still a huge sum for what we have got back, in return, so far.

I don't think this is a useful way to approach it. We can all look at lists of either the worst-value or best-value transfers and say 'why didn't we do that', but to be realistic, you wouldn't expect to fill a squad with duds, just like you wouldn't expect to hit the jackpot every time.

I'm not angry that every signing isn't as good-value as McGinn, but I think for £150m, with as many as we brought in, you'd have hoped that 1 or 2 of them had overachieved any realistic expectations that might have been set at the start of the season, and they haven't. One or two have underachieved, but the vast majority have been roughly as good as you might have expected, when we probably needed the hat to contain a couple of rabbits.

[villalad21]

15 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

I know you may say he don't make the signings. But must be the most inexperienced manager ever to have £150 million+ at his disposal to spend on just staying in the League.

We should have gone for quality instead of quantity 

Instead of paying 100+ million on 10+ players we should have kept the likes of Adomah, Hutton, Jedinak and Whelan for one more season (If Taylor is good enough to stay for another year so are they) and bought 3-4 quality players, possibly from the Championship.

Edited February 24, 2020 by villalad21

[Vive_La_Villa]

We need too see a reaction in the next 3 games. A Cup final in itself should be enough motivation for the players to give it their all but after that I’m interested to see how we perform against Leicester and Chelsea. If the effort levels are as they were against Southampton then it would seem Smith has lost the team and the writing could be on the wall for him. 

I don’t expect us to get anything from the next 3 games. But I do expect to see the players give it their all at the very least.

[Talldarkandransome]

15 hours ago, Zatman said:

I wonder if many players had the eye on the cup final next week and didnt want to risk injury

The least I want to see is 100% effort, the defeats I can take. El Ghazi acted like he had been punched by Tyson Fury. Very much doubt he will start the final. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

15 hours ago, foreveryoung said:

I know you may say he don't make the signings. But must be the most inexperienced manager ever to have £150 million+ at his disposal to spend on just staying in the League.

Probably the only manager to ever start the pre-season summer with 2 adequate first team players in the squad as well. 

Edited February 24, 2020 by Vive_La_Villa

[OxfordVillan]

10 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Did we really though? We were dominated for large chunks of the game and Nyland had to pull off several insane saves to keep us in the game. I don't think we played that well against Leicester, we were just a bit lucky.

As for the Spurs game, we looked great for like 17 minuutes in between a lucky own goal(which people somehow neglect to mention when talking about our performance that game) and the Spurs equalizer. We were absolutely dominated for the rest of the match yet through a combination of luck we nicked another goal and somehow conceded only another one before the Engels mistake despite conceding dangerous chance after dangerous chance to the Spurs attack.

We didn't look alright against them imo. We were lucky, it happens in a match. Lets just ignore the goals for a bit and look ask whether we were truly the equal to the team we faced that night? I don't think we were. I don't think we've been overall superior to another team we've faced for a long time now as well and that's worries me the most about our team. We're not just not getting results, we're playing badly, and the few good results we've somehow able to gain over the past 2 months have papered over that.

 

I can’t disagree with any of this. A combination of opposition teams poor finishing and great saves by our GKs has taken some ppls eyes away from the fact that on another day we could’ve lost the Leicester & Spurs games by 3-4 goal margins. Our set up in midfield is rarely correct and we have very little up front. Unfortunately I’ve arrived at the conclusion that it’ll be a small miracle for us to stay up. 

[villalad21]

10 hours ago, hippo said:

I'm sorta neutral on sacking Smith - my point was that should the board be forced into such a position whose confident they can land a decent manager.

His weakness wherever he has been is the goals against column.....that's what he has turn around....be it this season or next.

Sacking Smith now won't change anything. Our fixture list is too brutal for a new manager to come in.

Change should have been made at Christmas when he had already showed tactical inability. Arsenal and West Ham games come to mind.

We're better off sticking with Smith till the end of the season. It's our best chance of survival.

[OxfordVillan]

9 minutes ago, Talldarkandransome said:

The least I want to see is 100% effort, the defeats I can take. El Ghazi acted like he had been punched by Tyson Fury. Very much doubt he will start the final. 

Smith doesn’t have an option other than to drop a player or two now. He’s come out and told the media that some players have played themselves out of the final. If you don’t back up what you’ve said then your credibility is shot, and if your credibility is gone then it’s end of days! 

[Rob182]

7 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said:

Smith doesn’t have an option other than to drop a player or two now. He’s come out and told the media that some players have played themselves out of the final. If you don’t back up what you’ve said then your credibility is shot, and if your credibility is gone then it’s end of days! 

I think we'll switch to a back 4, dropping Hause and Konsa for Engels. I think we might see El Ghazi dropped for Trez, but it's only an assumption that El Ghazi came off when he could have stayed on. As far as we know, the medical staff might have said it's best he went off. We also could see one of Luiz/Nakamba dropped, but our only natural options to bring in would be Lansbury (please god no) or to move Grealish to the middle.

Alternatively, he could play the same team, and just say that he said what he said to get a reaction. Stranger things have happened in football management.

[sne]

13 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

We should have gone for quality instead of quantity 

Instead of paying 100+ million on 10+ players we should have kept the likes of Adomah, Hutton, Jedinak and Whelan for one more season (If Taylor is good enough to stay for another year so are they) and bought 3-4 quality players, possibly from the Championship.

But this just wasn't an option. Adomah is the one closest to playing competitive football and he's a bench option for Nottingham in the Championship. Him instead of Trez would have saved us some money but we'd be even worse on the pitch.

Whelan could not cut it in Scotland so is now playing League 1 football at Fleetwood. 

Jedi and Hutton couldn't even find clubs or didn't want to and are now retired. Having Hutton as our 3rd choice RB (the current ones where already signed before the summer) would have helped how? Or are you suggesting we should have went into the season with Hutton as our starting LB?

Taylor while crap is younger than those 4 and more importantly under contract, sadly for another year still. Those other 4 had expiring contracts.

The issue with the squad is down to the Short-sightedness deployed by the previous manager and the guys who run the club before our new owners came in.

[Rob182]

Just now, sne said:

But this just wasn't an option. Adomah is the one closest to playing competitive football and he's a bench option for Nottingham in the Championship. Him instead of Trez would have saved us some money but we'd be even worse on the pitch.

Whelan could not cut it in Scotland so is now playing League 1 football at Fleetwood. 

Jedi and Hutton couldn't even find clubs or didn't want to and are now retired. Having Hutton as our 3rd choice RB (the current ones where already signed before the summer) would have helped how? Or are you suggesting we should have went into the season with Hutton as our starting LB?

Taylor while crap is younger than those 4 and more importantly under contract, sadly for another year still. Those other 4 had expiring contracts.

The issue with the squad is down to the Short-sightedness deployed by the previous manager and the guys who run the club before our new owners came in.

100% this.

There is, of course, an argument to say that we could have kept a couple of last season's players, but it's all guesswork and hindsight based on nothing more than blind hope that they would have been better than our current squad. (Which, as you've explained, is highly unlikely).

With our squad in the condition it was in, I fully supported the way that we went about our business in the summer. Whether the right players were bought, is another question entirely. But no team in the world has a perfect model for only buying successful players.

I keep seeing people saying our signings of Trez/ El Ghazi/ Wesley were wrong, but as Smith said before January, scoring goals hasn't really been a problem. Leaking goals has been.

If we're looking to pick holes in our recruitment policy, then we should be looking at the signings of Targett, Engels, Konsa, Nakamba and Luiz.

But, playing Devil's Advocate, there's a good argument there for signing all of them, and, at times, they've all played well this season.

If I was being overly critical, then I would probably identify Konsa and Luiz as the two signings that shouldn't have been made, based on the fact that both are young, both inexperienced in the league, and both should have essentially been 'rotation/ cup' options (in my opinion) with one eye on the future, and it's a £25m+ outlay that could potentially have been spent on first team players.

If we'd spent that money on more Premier League experience (eg: Gary Cahill & Danny Drinkwater-type unspectacular players), then that might have seen us defend better. But, then again, bringing in those types of player also has it's own risks. Best case scenario is that they do a good job, but then need replacing in a year's time when age gets the better of them. Worst case scenario is that they've completely lost the fight that they used to have, and they turn out to be a Lescott/Richards signing.

[villalad21]

14 minutes ago, sne said:

But this just wasn't an option. Adomah is the one closest to playing competitive football and he's a bench option for Nottingham in the Championship. Him instead of Trez would have saved us some money but we'd be even worse on the pitch.

Whelan could not cut it in Scotland so is now playing League 1 football at Fleetwood. 

Jedi and Hutton couldn't even find clubs or didn't want to and are now retired. Having Hutton as our 3rd choice RB (the current ones where already signed before the summer) would have helped how? Or are you suggesting we should have went into the season with Hutton as our starting LB?

Taylor while crap is younger than those 4 and more importantly under contract, sadly for another year still. Those other 4 had expiring contracts.

The issue with the squad is down to the Short-sightedness deployed by the previous manager and the guys who run the club before our new owners came in.

But it was an option.

The idea is to buy better players but have them as backup. If Taylor is good enough to be in the squad so are they.

They were and played a part in a team that got promoted. You don't turn shit over night. 

They were also important figures in the dressing room. Point is too much change in a short space of time isn't ideal. Lesson to be learned.