Neil Taylor

[dont_do_it_doug.]

3 hours ago, BOF said:

I think you have inferred some exaggeration in what I wrote.  I didn't imply psychotic.  I didn't imply over the top of the ball.  I said he went in 2 footed with both feet off the ground.  Which he did.  If you read my post without agenda on either of our sides, you'll hopefully see a post attempting to be balanced.

Fair enough. 

I read your post as you were implying that Taylor intended to take the man (and ball) and that he intentionally went in two footed and off the ground. Please correct me if I'm wrong?

That makes him sound psychotic to me. Roy Keane esq, which is a tad ironic considering the way Oirland fans have reacted in general. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[BOF]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Fair enough. 

I read your post as you were implying that Taylor intended to take the man and ball and that he intentionally went in two footed and off the ground. Please correct me if I'm wrong?

That makes him sound psychotic to me. Roy Keane esq, which is a tad ironic considering the way Oirland fans have reacted in general. 

I've said in an earlier post that I do believe he intended to 'leave one on' Coleman.  Just nowhere near the extent that he ended up doing so.  I don't believe that's psychotic and it's not the first or last time someone will attempt to foul someone in order to stop them in their tracks, as Coleman was always favourite for the ball and would have been past Taylor in a dangerous area.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

I've said in an earlier post that I do believe he intended to 'leave one on' Coleman.  Just nowhere near the extent that he ended up doing so.  I don't believe that's psychotic and it's not the first or last time someone will attempt to foul someone in order to stop them in their tracks, as Coleman was always favourite for the ball and would have been past Taylor in a dangerous area.

Sure, that's the post I initially quoted. If I have misconstrued this;

Quote

did he intend to 'leave one on' Coleman knowing he'd be 2nd to the ball?  Yes I believe he did, and I believe that because he went in 2 footed with both feet off the ground in that scissor style that he's done before.  Once you do that, you've lost control and you've failed in your duty of care to your opponent. 

Then fair enough. But it sounds like you're saying it was a professional foul. Personally, I don't think there's near enough evidence for anyone to suggest that. 

There's a difference between tugging a player back in order to stop an attack and going in two footed on them. The former is part of the game, the dark arts yada yada. The latter is assault and I don't think it happens anywhere near as much as you suggest. 

Neither do I think it happened here. It was a bad challenge, a red card and an appropriate ban, but it was made with 'good' intentions. 

[BOF]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Sure, that's the post I initially quoted. If I have misconstrued this;

Then fair enough. But it sounds like you're saying it was a professional foul. Personally, I don't think there's near enough evidence for anyone to suggest that. 

There's a difference between tugging a player back in order to stop an attack and going in two footed on them. The former is part of the game, the dark arts yada yada. The latter is assault and I don't think it happens anywhere near as much as you suggest. 

Neither do I think it happened here. It was a bad challenge, a red card and an appropriate ban, but it was made with 'good' intentions. 

So we're only really disagreeing on whether it was intended to be a professional foul or not.

[OutByEaster?]

8 hours ago, BOF said:

We need to be clear what weight the word 'intentional' carries here.  Did he intend to break someone's leg?  No, of course he didn't.  But did he intend to 'leave one on' Coleman knowing he'd be 2nd to the ball?  Yes I believe he did.

I'd disagree, I think he was hoping to get to the ball first, he was wrong, that's the first of the two misjudgements that cause the issue, the second being the distance and speed he had to travel to get there, he was stretching too much. I'm guessing on his mindset based on having seen the tackle and I guess we won't know, but for me I saw a player that thought the ball could be won and was wrong.

Quote

and I have that belief because he went in 2 footed with both feet off the ground in that scissor style that he's done before.  Once you do that, you've lost control and you've failed in your duty of care to your opponent.  Most of the time you get away without the bad consequence, but on the occasion when you don't, you've only yourself to blame.

I'm not sure it's particularly two footed, and I don't think it was necessarily over the ball (I know you haven't said so) - the ball wasn't rolling, it was still bouncing when he got there - but as soon as you leave the ground you have to be very sure you're right. He was wrong. The scissor style isn't so much as a problem for me, it doesn't cause the injuries, it's there to make sure you foul a man in case he's nicked the ball past you. I think also in his favour in terms of guessing his motivation is that he's ended up going across Coleman's leg and the energy from the collision comes from the combination of Coleman attempting to kick through the ball and Taylor's momentum. 

As you say, most of the time you get away without the bad consequence, sometimes you get away with the ball, most often you give away a foul and on very rare occasions like this, you end up with an injury - either to yourself or to your opponent - it was reckless, it was misjudged and it was a poor challenge, but I don't think he went for him.

None of which really matters, I'd really hope that this doesn't become something that's pinned to Taylor for the rest of his career, because I don't think he deserves it, it reminds me to an extent of the Ryan Shawcross one on Aaron Ramsey which for me wasn't much off a 50-50 ball - it took Shawcross a long time to shake that.

I'm pleased that Martin O'Neill has said that the operation went well and that the surgeons are happy and I wish Seamus Coleman the best of luck with his recovery - modern techniques are capable of ensuring that these injuries don't automatically end careers nowadays, I very much hope that's the case.

Taylor just needs to get his head down and not let the fuss affect him. It's important that the fans are behind him on Saturday I think.

 

 

[Jimzk5]

I only saw the tackle today and only from one angle, from what I saw echoes what OBE has just posted

[bobzy]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm not sure it's particularly two footed, and I don't think it was necessarily over the ball (I know you haven't said so) - the ball wasn't rolling, it was still bouncing when he got there - but as soon as you leave the ground you have to be very sure you're right. He was wrong. The scissor style isn't so much as a problem for me, it doesn't cause the injuries, it's there to make sure you foul a man in case he's nicked the ball past you. I think also in his favour in terms of guessing his motivation is that he's ended up going across Coleman's leg and the energy from the collision comes from the combination of Coleman attempting to kick through the ball and Taylor's momentum. 

 

 

The scissor style really does cause the injuries - specifically for the exact reason you've stated, it's "designed" to take out the man.  If you've got a planted, standing leg and get caught, you're liable to get your leg snapped.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

From a pro. Well worth a click. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 hours ago, BOF said:

So we're only really disagreeing on whether it was intended to be a professional foul or not.

Well yeah. There's a massive difference. 

One is murder, the other manslaughter. The difference between the hang mans noose or 5 years. If he has no intention of winning the ball he should be banned for a long time, I don't believe that's the case.

[Zatman]

10 hours ago, BOF said:

I find both extremes to be infuriating tbh.  The "oh shit happens, get over it, he didn't mean it" posts are as blinkered as the "he should be banned for as long as Coleman is injured" type posts.  I find 'Social media can go **** itself' is a pretty good starting point in most discussions, as it doesn't lend itself to productive debate, and twitter's brevity actively discourages it.

was somebody on the FAI page complaining that nobody in the stadium called the police 

[ml1dch]

2 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

From a pro. Well worth a click. 

Although he had a long and varied playing career, I'm not sure many of Dave Kitson's experiences involved making flying, leg-breaking tackles and the mentality involved.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

43 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Although he had a long and varied playing career, I'm not sure many of Dave Kitson's experiences involved making flying, leg-breaking tackles and the mentality involved.

Ok well his opinion is no less relevant that Wilfred Zaha's. Let's agree on that?

Edited March 27, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[ml1dch]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Ok well his opinion is no less relevant that Wilfred Zaha's. Let's agree on that?

Oh, absolutely. I've got no idea what Wilfried Zaha's opinion on the matter is though.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

3 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Oh, absolutely. I've got no idea what Wilfried Zaha's opinion on the matter is though.

That it was a disgusting challenge. Harsh words from a consummate professional. 

I'd have thought Kitson has proven himself over the years to be a man who at least understands the game and the mindset of a professional footballer. Certainly better than we do?

Anyway, worth a read.

[ml1dch]

28 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

That it was a disgusting challenge. Harsh words from a consummate professional. 

I'd have thought Kitson has proven himself over the years to be a man who at least understands the game and the mindset of a professional footballer. Certainly better than we do?

Yes, I expect so. But I've read opinions from people who "understand the game and the mindset of a professional footballer better than we do" who have said that it was definitely something and nothing and just an unfortunate coming together and some who have said that it was definitely an act of villany which should see Taylor strapped to a gurney and marched naked through the streets of Dublin (paraphrasing in both cases, obvs.)

Unless I have seen evidence to prove otherwise* I find it easier to assume that most footballers are capable of thought and analysis in line with anybody else who stops the bulk of their formative education when they're about fourteen years old.

*I have read all of Kitson's extremely entertaining books though.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ml1dch

[Stockport_Villain]

17 hours ago, astonaidan said:

I never said he intended to break his leg, but he knew what he was doing. Why should we cut him some slack because he did something in the heat of the moment, thats a crazy attitude to have

I didn't say you did. He knew he was trying to win the ball, mistimed it, knew he'd committed a foul and reacted as any other player would. You cut him some slack because it wasn't deliberate. 

[kurtsimonw]

14 hours ago, BOF said:

as Coleman was always favourite for the ball and would have been past Taylor in a dangerous area.

Well, I don't think Coleman would've been past him. Coleman swung his leg hard at the ball. It's what made his injury so bad. If he was just trying to take it past Taylor, I think it's very unlikely he ends up hurt. Not his fault, he's obviously entitled to kick the ball and it was a poor challenge regardless. 

[BOF]

What I am wondering now is whether Taylor will be in the right frame of mind to start our next game.  By all accounts he's devastated over what he did to Coleman, so it'll be interesting to see whether he's rested for the Norwich game, either because of his mental state or to keep him out of the firing line.  I do have an ounce of sympathy for the aggressor in situations like this.  They rightly get blamed, but they are probably putting themselves through the ringer as well.

[astonaidan]

7 hours ago, Stockport_Villain said:

I didn't say you did. He knew he was trying to win the ball, mistimed it, knew he'd committed a foul and reacted as any other player would. You cut him some slack because it wasn't deliberate. 

It was deliberate, maybe not to break his leg but he meant to get him. He had no chance of getting the ball, its clear as day. He wanted to rough up Coleman, only a blind man would argue any different, so no I wont cut him some slack for a scumbag tackle

[NeilS]

27 minutes ago, astonaidan said:

He had no chance of getting the ball, its clear as day. He wanted to rough up Coleman, only a blind man would argue any different, so no I wont cut him some slack for a scumbag tackle

I must be watching a different video to you then, as in the one i watched they more or less get to the ball at a similar time. The tackle was reckless, and hard, but I would imagine he thought the ball was there to win and I think you are being overly harsh with your assesment that he only wanted to rough up Coleman.

Taylor tackle on Coleman