Steve Bruce

[Vive_La_Villa]

Ok I'm no fan of Bruce but I'm curious to understand this attacking approach that fans seem to want him to adopt. How does this work in practise?  I always thought a team needs to attack as a team and defend as team. The problem I see at Villa is when we attack the movement is so bad that eventually players run out of options and just lump it in the ball in to the box. 

So what change in approach to make us more attacking would improve this? 

[sheepyvillian]

32 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Ok I'm no fan of Bruce but I'm curious to understand this attacking approach that fans seem to want him to adopt. How does this work in practise?  I always thought a team needs to attack as a team and defend as team. The problem I see at Villa is when we attack the movement is so bad that eventually players run out of options and just lump it in the ball in to the box. 

So what change in approach to make us more attacking would improve this? 

The only change that would make sense. Need I say it ?

[srsmithusa]

53 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Ok I'm no fan of Bruce but I'm curious to understand this attacking approach that fans seem to want him to adopt. How does this work in practise?  I always thought a team needs to attack as a team and defend as team. The problem I see at Villa is when we attack the movement is so bad that eventually players run out of options and just lump it in the ball in to the box. 

So what change in approach to make us more attacking would improve this? 

Other than a quick counter (as in MON) you are right, teams are best to attack as a team. How?  Well, that would take a coaching badge higher than mine, but in general..... there are still several ways to do it.  Barca’s tippy tappy (few can do this, but it can be coached, drilled, and players get much better at it).  Then there are at least 3 different strategies I’m aware of, for movement to alternately clog and create space. They are much more scripted than most football.  But they all require more movement than we tend to make.   

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

Other than a quick counter (as in MON) you are right, teams are best to attack as a team. How?  Well, that would take a coaching badge higher than mine, but in general..... there are still several ways to do it.  Barca’s tippy tappy (few can do this, but it can be coached, drilled, and players get much better at it).  Then there are at least 3 different strategies I’m aware of, for movement to alternately clog and create space. They are much more scripted than most football.  But they all require more movement than we tend to make.   

Imagine trying to explain that to Bruce. 

[lexicon]

23 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

Imagine trying to explain that to Bruce. 

Or Gabby. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

2 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

Other than a quick counter (as in MON) you are right, teams are best to attack as a team. How?  Well, that would take a coaching badge higher than mine, but in general..... there are still several ways to do it.  Barca’s tippy tappy (few can do this, but it can be coached, drilled, and players get much better at it).  Then there are at least 3 different strategies I’m aware of, for movement to alternately clog and create space. They are much more scripted than most football.  But they all require more movement than we tend to make.   

Exactly. The issue is not with Bruce setting up his teams to Defend.  The issue is our team does not know how to attack! 

The problems at the club are far deeper than a managers tactics or lineup I'm afraid.

[Dave J]

4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Exactly. The issue is not with Bruce setting up his teams to Defend.  The issue is our team does not know how to attack! 

The problems at the club are far deeper than a managers tactics or lineup I'm afraid.

So the guy who is paid a Kings ransom to coach our players can not fathom how to send out a team that can attack the opposition after 20 odd years in the management game- what on earth were Wyness and Round thinking of?

[flashingqwerty]

4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Exactly. The issue is not with Bruce setting up his teams to Defend.  The issue is our team does not know how to attack! 

The problems at the club are far deeper than a managers tactics or lineup I'm afraid.

Well thats just silly.

As manager appointing coaches and telling how and what to train the players to do is entirely within his remit.

If we are making the argument that SB wants the team to play attacking football but the coaching is letting him down then he needs to hire new coaching staff.

If its that the coaches are doing what they can but the players arent responding, either he needs to try different coacjes or he has picked players poorly ( this seems unlikely as the majority of these players were very good attackers before coming here).

My opinion would be that the players are being coached or instructed to play in very rigid roles preventing them from performing well in a fluid and creative manner.  This would suggest why defensively we have improved as we are working well as a unit and everyone is where they should be. 

However, when you set up a team that way you lose the freedom and cutting edge a more liberal approach brings.  We also have to acknowledge that we are working with championship not prem quality players.  These players remain in the championship because they are more limited.  I believe they are effective when asked to play a single role in a team but when asked to play multiple end up either getting all wrong or only doing one well.

For example in a 3 man midfield we should identify who is the best defensively and have them only do that role, identify who is the best ofensively and have him only do that, and then you need to identify a midfielder with that bit of extra quality that is able to play and be effective in both - i dont believe we currently have on of those.  

Imo currently i think all 3 cms play quite defensively meaning we suffer in attack and forces us to play long ball

[Vive_La_Villa]

6 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said:

Well thats just silly.

As manager appointing coaches and telling how and what to train the players to do is entirely within his remit.

If we are making the argument that SB wants the team to play attacking football but the coaching is letting him down then he needs to hire new coaching staff.

If its that the coaches are doing what they can but the players arent responding, either he needs to try different coacjes or he has picked players poorly ( this seems unlikely as the majority of these players were very good attackers before coming here).

My opinion would be that the players are being coached or instructed to play in very rigid roles preventing them from performing well in a fluid and creative manner.  This would suggest why defensively we have improved as we are working well as a unit and everyone is where they should be. 

However, when you set up a team that way you lose the freedom and cutting edge a more liberal approach brings.  We also have to acknowledge that we are working with championship not prem quality players.  These players remain in the championship because they are more limited.  I believe they are effective when asked to play a single role in a team but when asked to play multiple end up either getting all wrong or only doing one well.

For example in a 3 man midfield we should identify who is the best defensively and have them only do that role, identify who is the best ofensively and have him only do that, and then you need to identify a midfielder with that bit of extra quality that is able to play and be effective in both - i dont believe we currently have on of those.  

Imo currently i think all 3 cms play quite defensively meaning we suffer in attack and forces us to play long ball

Sorry I think you misunderstood me. My point was there is a fundamental problem with the management and coaching. That's why I found posts about his formation and approach to games tiring. The problem is the whole setup. Not just the game to game decisions.

[Grasshopper]

21 minutes ago, flashingqwerty said:

Well thats just silly.

As manager appointing coaches and telling how and what to train the players to do is entirely within his remit.

If we are making the argument that SB wants the team to play attacking football but the coaching is letting him down then he needs to hire new coaching staff.

If its that the coaches are doing what they can but the players arent responding, either he needs to try different coacjes or he has picked players poorly ( this seems unlikely as the majority of these players were very good attackers before coming here).

My opinion would be that the players are being coached or instructed to play in very rigid roles preventing them from performing well in a fluid and creative manner.  This would suggest why defensively we have improved as we are working well as a unit and everyone is where they should be. 

However, when you set up a team that way you lose the freedom and cutting edge a more liberal approach brings.  We also have to acknowledge that we are working with championship not prem quality players.  These players remain in the championship because they are more limited.  I believe they are effective when asked to play a single role in a team but when asked to play multiple end up either getting all wrong or only doing one well.

For example in a 3 man midfield we should identify who is the best defensively and have them only do that role, identify who is the best ofensively and have him only do that, and then you need to identify a midfielder with that bit of extra quality that is able to play and be effective in both - i dont believe we currently have on of those.  

Imo currently i think all 3 cms play quite defensively meaning we suffer in attack and forces us to play long ball

cracking post

the bolded part meaning

Davis holds ball up - MF can join in

Hoof to Kodjia - Kodjia magic = goal

Hoof to Hogan - wrong tactic for players movement

[srsmithusa]

To be fair, flashing QWERTY,  holding one MF back, as you suggest, is a fine plan, but it too is pretty rigid in roles.  Frankly, would rather have 3 versatile and mobile MF players.  One tends to think defense first, but when trying to breakdown a packed defense, he should burst forward at somewhat unexpected times, the others must be alert to see that, and one or the other drop back to cover.  The rotating attackers are harder to defend because defenders can’t always know who they need to pick up.  I’m attacking enough that I’m ok with a center half moving into dynamic attack, but the midfielders have to be aware and drop or at least high pressure if there is a turnover, so the outlet ball can’t be hit well.  

BTW, we don’t do any of that.  Which is largely why I’m, Bruce out.  He allows players that show no movement, rotation, positional awareness, to keep playing, match after match.  By doing so, he tolerates it. So it continues.  

The results have gotten better.  The performances are still poor.  I think they always will be, with SB.  

[villianusa]

10 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Ok I'm no fan of Bruce but I'm curious to understand this attacking approach that fans seem to want him to adopt. How does this work in practise?  I always thought a team needs to attack as a team and defend as team. The problem I see at Villa is when we attack the movement is so bad that eventually players run out of options and just lump it in the ball in to the box. 

So what change in approach to make us more attacking would improve this? 

Whatever formation a team may play (442, 433, 532, etc) there are also a number of patterns of play that a team can choose to play. The POP, dictate who passes to who and in what area of the field. Then on top of that, there is what tempo a team is going to do it at. These things added together, can lead to many different ways a team may play with the same formation.

Teams who do this well, (Brazil, Barcelona, Arsenal) make it look so fluid and that it's just natural and down to just ability. It isn't, these teams practice and practice this until players know where to be at all times. Either though I'm not against Bruce, it doesn't look like we practice this enough. We often look very splintered, and not knowing where the next ball should be played. There is an article somewhere, where Bruce says he doesn't pay much mind to tactics. This practice normally takes place in preseason, because it can take 2-3 months to get everybody on board. 

If I could get a few minutes with Bruce, this is what I would ask him to work more with the team on. Players are often left isolated, with very little movement off the ball. Saying that some of the passes from players this season has been abysmal. The players need to be able to pass consistently well, or we are never going reach our full potential, no matter what formation we play

[Demitri_C]

10 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

cracking post

the bolded part meaning

Davis holds ball up - MF can join in

Hoof to Kodjia - Kodjia magic = goal

Hoof to Hogan - wrong tactic for players movement

Yes we have heavily relied on kodjias and hogans goals this season, a total of one goal between them. You are thinking more of last season my friend

[TRO]

17 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Exactly. The issue is not with Bruce setting up his teams to Defend.  The issue is our team does not know how to attack! 

The problems at the club are far deeper than a managers tactics or lineup I'm afraid.

I would imagine that these kind of comments are made from fans in most clubs in the leagues.

[Vive_La_Villa]

Just watched our goal against Shef Wed again and it was a great example of what we need to see more of. O'Hare made a simple but clever run, Grealish picked him out with perfectly weighted pass. Pullback and goal. 

Certain players don't need to be coached this, it comes naturally to them. They just need to be playing. 

[Grasshopper]

7 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Just watched our goal against Shef Wed again and it was a great example of what we need to see more of. O'Hare made a simple but clever run, Grealish picked him out with perfectly weighted pass. Pullback and goal. 

Certain players don't need to be coached this, it comes naturally to them. They just need to be playing. 

It only illustrates the complete idiocy of Bruce‘s „Scared to lose“ mentality.

0-2 down after 30 odd mins————— long long not enough positive intent (with a bit of risk involved)

Then finally we have the players on the pitch that can do something creative in attack, time running out - what happens - Goal.

Too little too late.

Makes you wonder about the sheer ignorance and blindness of someone who

1 - plays CH further forward = scores goals

2 - brings on 2 players with a bit if imagination = goal

Then reverts back to cautious play.

Madness - no chance of success

[omariqy]

17 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

It only illustrates the complete idiocy of Bruce‘s „Scared to lose“ mentality.

0-2 down after 30 odd mins————— long long not enough positive intent (with a bit of risk involved)

Then finally we have the players on the pitch that can do something creative in attack, time running out - what happens - Goal.

Too little too late.

Makes you wonder about the sheer ignorance and blindness of someone who

1 - plays CH further forward = scores goals

2 - brings on 2 players with a bit if imagination = goal

Then reverts back to cautious play.

Madness - no chance of success

It is that old school mentality of make sure you don't lose first and then anything after that is a bonus. We are better off Winning 2 and losing one then we are of winning one and drawing two. The latter is what you will get from managers like Bruce. Then when you lose a game you have that much more ground to make up. 

[USA_Villa]

The stat that jumps out to me is that we have one of the lowest shots per game ratios in the league. Take a look at Brentford, now that's entertainment. Imagine what Dean Smith could do with a couple of decent strikers?

[lexicon]

Shots per game doesn't exactly mean a lot because it doesn't indicate quality or chance creation - it can be just blasting the ball miles wide from 40 yards. 

[VillaChris]

He wanted the West Ham job.