Steve Bruce

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, briny_ear said:

Seriously, this is the one killer thing that discredits a lot of the anti-Bruce propaganda on here for me. The idea that RDM would have done a better job than Bruce is ludicrous, it's based on nothing. The evidence we do have is that he wasted an awful lot of Xia's money, bought almost an entire team, a lot of whom have had to be replaced. He then stood like a rabbit in the headlights while the team (NB forgot to buy a midfield) slopped around and achieved one win from 11 games. Oh yes, that was top 2 performance of a sort that Steve Bruce can only dream of!

IIRC, Xia himself referred to getting a manager who had some fight about him and some clue how to make things better.

The fact that so many of the anti-Brucers are pro-RDM says a lot.

Yeah ludicrous to suspect anything would change with more time or another window.   Which, coincidentally is why Bruce should be out.  

[TRO]

6 hours ago, Dave J said:

TRO - pro - football really is jobs for the boys- it’s rare that someone goes public about another manager, player, ex player etc - so I for one genuinely pay no credit to this at all.

Bruce has been around for a long long time and does not have an awful lot to show for it imo.

yes you are right in saying he’s from the same stock as Pulis & Big Sam and I wouldn’t want either of these pair near us.

i also agree that once a player crosses that white line there is nothing a manager can do to stop misplaced passes, or ill thought decisions on an individual basis - what SB can be accountable for is uninspiring ethos that we are- for me it’s in his DNA and I can’t see this changing any time soon

Yes I accept it is a close knit sect....and they are all fully paid up members of the "back patters club"

I find it hard to disagree with you Dave.

On the footballing side I am far from happy or convinced.....I just think he helps with the clubs stability, when we have been through such a turbulent time.

how long we have to worry about that is another argument.....with FFP and finances being what they are, I don't see a change any time soon.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

Tro, we don‘t allude to. We say what we say as we see it. No pussyfooting around here.

 

Now you know its career suicide not being „politically correct“.

i.e. „ yeah he‘s a good/great manager“ = „he puts me in the team“ „ he‘s British (bloody foriegners nicking our jobs)“

This ^ is simply wrong by fact. He WOULD play our players differently to Bruce. You - as a regular match-goer - would be one of the first to see the difference some fans allude to right before your very own eyes

I‘m really confused by the Hogan signing.

If Bruce indeed bought him to play him how he does, then he got it totally wrong - Bad nanagement.

If Round and the scouts carried out the signing/recommended him, then they got one if two things completely wrong.

1 - The wrong players for the manager

or

2 - The wrong manager for the player recruitment policy

well thats a moot example

1- Bruce didnt buy him

2- Bruce hardly played him

this is the exact train of thought you display by exonerating Bruce. Jose‘s ways were not suitable for deB or deB wasnt suited to Jose‘s ways.

I don‘t want to presume for others but, I think Bruce‘s ways are not suitable for the players we have, that‘s why I think he should go.

he doesnt do this

there is not proof of this because he doesnt try to play this so called expansive game

correct and perfectly understandable from his pov

which is because he regularily exposes their weaknesses

1- disagree

2- is it 100% clear that he decides every signing?

true

we will see

you know what my money‘s on

 

GH I respect your opinion....but I do not necessarily agree with all of what you claim either ....I'm sorry mate, I have put my head above the parapet and you have had your pop.

I am comfortable with that, because its the only way to debate.....I may not be as sure with my stance than your are with yours.

I appreciate you are fervent in your opinion and you make a good case.....but I am no more unsure with my thoughts having seen your responses.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, BigJim said:

Isn't the fault at the manager's door whichever way you answer it?  He's the one who brought half of them in and he's the one who  picks all of them every week. Why would you keep selecting players who couldn't carry out your instructions?

That bit I accept Jim.

But its clear to me that some are much better than others and the some do tend to carry out their jobs more efficiently.

now is that because Steve Bruce coaches them better, so he has a different coaching style for each group of players?......or is it they are just better quality players in the first place?....and capable of making better decisions?

I accept your point its his responsibility either way, but it would be helpful if we were more consistent in what we are criticising him for.....or is it both.

I do not get the same Vibe talking to Villa Fans off VT as I do on it.....that is no way having a pop at VT posters its just weird....perhaps its to do with sample size.

I do get the response the football is not convincing, but when I ask should they get rid I do not get a clear answer.....Its very nebulous.

 

[Villan_of_oz]

3 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Seriously, this is the one killer thing that discredits a lot of the anti-Bruce propaganda on here for me. The idea that RDM would have done a better job than Bruce is ludicrous, it's based on nothing. The evidence we do have is that he wasted an awful lot of Xia's money, bought almost an entire team, a lot of whom have had to be replaced. He then stood like a rabbit in the headlights while the team (NB forgot to buy a midfield) slopped around and achieved one win from 11 games. Oh yes, that was top 2 performance of a sort that Steve Bruce can only dream of!

IIRC, Xia himself referred to getting a manager who had some fight about him and some clue how to make things better.

The fact that so many of the anti-Brucers are pro-RDM says a lot.

I have seen no one on here who I would call a pro-RDM, saying they'd take him over Bruce is just pointing out how woeful Bruce is. 

Needless bashing of people who don't agree with you. Twisting words to suit an argument means the argument is pretty much exhausted. 

It's worth noting that I wouldn't take RDM over Bruce, but this type of post gets my back up. 

[TRO]

7 hours ago, Grasshopper said:

When I hear that name Alex Cropley I can almost hear the sound of a leg breaking. I remember crying when he got carried off (emotional teenager syndrome).

He was a great player. Such a shame.

One of my favourites GH

[Vive_La_Villa]

Who the hell thinks RDM would have done a better job then Bruce? 

RDM didn't have a clue how to get us promoted. It's almost criminal he was given the job. Bruce on the other hand has managed to convinced the board he can. 

[briny_ear]

5 hours ago, Villan_of_oz said:

I have seen no one on here who I would call a pro-RDM, saying they'd take him over Bruce is just pointing out how woeful Bruce is. 

Needless bashing of people who don't agree with you. Twisting words to suit an argument means the argument is pretty much exhausted. 

It's worth noting that I wouldn't take RDM over Bruce, but this type of post gets my back up. 

I was picking up on a comment that said “I don’t think RDM was clueless and feel we would now be in a better position if he had stayed”. Utter speculation but, Insofar as we have any evidence about RDM, this is demonstrably wrong.

There are plenty of similar comments in the thread if you care to find them.

Sorry if that gets your back up but, if the only thing that annoys you in a thread that has page after page of distorted statistics and people  repeating over and over again tired old cliches about Bruce, as well as throwing in the odd personal snipe, is me challenging a nonsense statement about RDM, you are clearly reading this stuff in a very different way to me.

You describe, with no supporting argument, Bruce as “woeful”. A manager who  has us in 6th Place is apparently “woeful”. OK, that’s your opinion but I’m holding out for the day when there is some discussion on this thread rather than simply repeating slogans like that.

[Villan_of_oz]

1 hour ago, briny_ear said:

I was picking up on a comment that said “I don’t think RDM was clueless and feel we would now be in a better position if he had stayed”. Utter speculation but, Insofar as we have any evidence about RDM, this is demonstrably wrong.

There are plenty of similar comments in the thread if you care to find them.

Sorry if that gets your back up but, if the only thing that annoys you in a thread that has page after page of distorted statistics and people  repeating over and over again tired old cliches about Bruce, as well as throwing in the odd personal snipe, is me challenging a nonsense statement about RDM, you are clearly reading this stuff in a very different way to me.

You describe, with no supporting argument, Bruce as “woeful”. A manager who  has us in 6th Place is apparently “woeful”. OK, that’s your opinion but I’m holding out for the day when there is some discussion on this thread rather than simply repeating slogans like that.

Maybe should focus on specific posts rather than mass generalisations. 

Since when do I have to provide a supporting argument with my opinion.

I don't like Bruce as our manager, and I'm not providing any reasons  but that doesn't mean I don't have them. 

If this thread upsets you so much maybe you should take a break.

Enjoy your day 

[srsmithusa]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

That bit I accept Jim.

But its clear to me that some are much better than others and the some do tend to carry out their jobs more efficiently.

now is that because Steve Bruce coaches them better, so he has a different coaching style for each group of players?......or is it they are just better quality players in the first place?....and capable of making better decisions?

I accept your point its his responsibility either way, but it would be helpful if we were more consistent in what we are criticising him for.....or is it both.

I do not get the same Vibe talking to Villa Fans off VT as I do on it.....that is no way having a pop at VT posters its just weird....perhaps its to do with sample size.

I do get the response the football is not convincing, but when I ask should they get rid I do not get a clear answer.....Its very nebulous.

 

So, for the sake of argument.  You agree the performances are not consistently good enough?

You just don’t know who’s at fault?  Might be players, might be coaches, might be other things, might even be, a little bit SB?   But because you don’t really know who is at fault you think Bruce should stay (for now at least). ?

if I’m (close to) right in presenting your position, what do you think should be done, by whom, in order to fix the problems you see?

[Tommo_b]

On 08/11/2017 at 23:20, Grasshopper said:

Because during Baker‘s career at Villa he had Okore, Richards, Lescott alongside him as well as the likes of Richardson & Cissohko along side him and no worthy DM (Sanchez, Westwood, Gardner) in front of him

Last season, maybe his level, he had Chester as a CB partner, Amavi, Taylor alongside him & Jedi as DM, and looked an effective player for us.

Richards, Elphick and Samba look and have looked awful. They are all now, in reverse order, our options while JT is out.

If it was a SB decision, or even just a „ok, he can go, we have adequate back up in Samba, Elphick & Richards“ then it was an almighty cock-up that will no doubt cost us dearly

I do disagree, Baker was an awful defender regardless of who played alongside him. Samba, Elphick and Richards are all better defenders then Baker, I know Elphick hasn’t done the business for us, but there was genuine upset from the Brighton support when Elphick went to Villa instead of going to Brighton.

[DaveAV1]

1 hour ago, Tommo_b said:

I do disagree, Baker was an awful defender regardless of who played alongside him. Samba, Elphick and Richards are all better defenders then Baker, I know Elphick hasn’t done the business for us, but there was genuine upset from the Brighton support when Elphick went to Villa instead of going to Brighton.

Whilst I don’t think Baker was a great defender, I find it hard to agree that he was worse than the three you’ve listed Tommo. Samba is clearly too old and unfit. Elphick (the best of  the three) appears to be also past his best and makes far too many mistakes in crucial situations. As for Richards, even headless chickens think he’s lost his head. 

Letting Baker go was a mistake in my opinion, if those three are the alternatives. Perhaps it was for financial reasons and the fact we can’t actually shift Elphick or Richards. The need to sign Samba I would question, when surely continuing the development of our own defenders as cover couldn’t be a worse option than signing Samba who won’t be playing for free. I assume his contract is to the end of this season?

[Dr_Pangloss]

Baker was solid for the most part last season and looked vastly superior to both Richards and Elphick whenever they played last season. A fairly strange piece of revisionism going on above.

[Stratvillan]

Thought baker was our best defender last season. Richards elphick etc are useless. 

[TRO]

20 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Lambert started off talking a good game but as the years went by we obviously saw he didn't value possession and preferred the counter attacking method.

We played o.k under Sherwood initally. High tempo and some decent passages of play but it didn't last.

Garde tried a possession game but it was too late.

RDM....no idea what the structure was. Out starting 11s were too unbalanced against him.

When have you seen a team coached by SB come to VP in the past and said...blimey they were a good team. He managed SHA, Wigan, Sunderland and Hull on this ground. Early years at SHA he did a good job but it was still more a team or battlers than one seeking to play another off the pitch.

I lump SB in with managers like MON, Pulis, Big Sam etc. Managers who set up teams to defend and don't value possession. Would rather stick men behind the ball and would hope to score from set pieces/balls played over the top.

It's fine in certain situations but trouble is we get back up to the prem and people will be looking at teams like Spurs and wanting us to play in a similar manner and SB obviously wouldn't be the man for that.

Hard to disagree with any of that.

IIRC Lambert played more of a possession game at Norwich, maybe he had the players like Hoolihan.

I still think managers play to the strengths of the players in the main.....when they sign players thats when they have to take responsibility more, because in theory they choose the style of player.

I guess Bobby Gould or Dave Bassett would have had trouble coaching the current Barcelona squad to play like the Crazy Gang... its horses for coarses.

back to Bruce.

I understand he has set us up to be hard to beat( doesn't always work) but in doing so there is now too much emphasis on defence and not enough on Offence.....having said all that I am not convinced that as a unit the offensive side of our team is strong enough to gain automatic promotion....The wingers are not dominant or pacy or consistent enough, Kodjia's goals are missing at present, Davis is learning his trade, the full backs are not attack minded enough and seem reluctant to drive on. The centre mids are hit and miss offensively too, no domination of the ball.

it worked to stop the rot.....but to gain promotion, not so sure.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Stratvillan said:

Thought baker was our best defender last season. Richards elphick etc are useless. 

I don't think Steve Bruce wanted him to go

Baker, does dominate aerially and it is a redeeming feature for a centre back at this level, probably better than Chester in the air.

However, his reading of the game was suspect and subsequently found himself out of position, this culminated in rash challenges (and as brave as he was) injuries.

his limitations led to inconsistency. Ok for midtable, not so good for promotion imo

but he is better then them two you mentioned.

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by TRO

[villianusa]

If we can stay in touch with the leaders going into the new year, I'll be happy. Not an ideal position, but no team is going to win every game, no matter what their name is or what the fans expect.

I expect us to be promoted this year, and I still feel Bruce is capable of doing that. A little bit harder now Terry is injured.

I'm looking forward to the next game, I haven't said that much in seasons prior.

[DaveAV1]

As TRO says a few posts above, SB sets us up not to lose, and there lies the problem. Teams that get automatic promotion win a lot of games, with our set up we won’t win enough games. Of course it’s desirable not to lose, but when it’s at the expense of not really trying to win, inevitably you end up with lots of tight games that could go either way. Which is exactly what we’ve been witnessing for the past 12 months or so. We could get automatic promotion but it isn’t very likely, I’d guess our final position will be somewhere between 5th and 10th. Which was never the plan. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by DaveAV1

[Vive_La_Villa]

11 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

As TRO says a few posts above, SB sets us up not to lose, and there lies the problem. Teams that get automatic promotion win a lot of games, with our set up we won’t win enough games. Of course it’s desirable not to lose, but when it’s at the expense of not really trying to win, inevitably you end up with lots of tight games that could go either way. Which is exactly what we’ve been witnessing for the past 12 months or so. We could get automatic promotion but it isn’t very likely, I’d guess our final position will be somewhere between 5th and 10th. Which was never the plan. 

I honestly believe with the way we play if we do not set up not to lose against better teams. We will lose. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Vive_La_Villa

[srsmithusa]

22 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I honestly believe with the way we play if we do not set up not to lose against better teams. We will lose. 

And who’s job is it to set and or change how we do that bolder part?