The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[ThunderPower_14]

We are getting heaps of reports in Australia about people who regret their Leave vote and didn't actually think Leave would get up.

 

We have a federal election in a week and i'm using the example set in the UK of why it's important to vote properly for something that actually represents your interests. There are a few useful tools on the net like https://votecompass.abc.net.au/ which can help Australians figure out who to vote for even if they don't care or don't like any of the candidates. 

 

I feel like the Brexit result might change the course of how people vote and how much they educate themselves on what they are voting for across the Western world in the short to medium term.

[AJ]

I must admit, my knowledge of British politics is quite vague, but was this one of those referendums in which the choice is either logical common sense or the ridiculous, and the madness had somehow snuck in? From what I gather from a lot of intelligent and well informed VT posters, this is kind of like waking up one morning in the lounge room after a heavy night of drinking, there is a donkey wearing a sombrero beside you playing FIFA on your playstation while rambling about the tourism boom potential of Luton, and you think " Where the bloody hell did you come from? Something like that?

[LondonLax]

20 minutes ago, AJ said:

I must admit, my knowledge of British politics is quite vague, but was this one of those referendums in which the choice is either logical common sense or the ridiculous, and the madness had somehow snuck in? From what I gather from a lot of intelligent and well informed VT posters, this is kind of like waking up one morning in the lounge room after a heavy night of drinking, there is a donkey wearing a sombrero beside you playing FIFA on your playstation while rambling about the tourism boom potential of Luton, and you think " Where the bloody hell did you come from? Something like that?

For a lot of 'leave' voters it seems like this was a Donald Trump style protest vote. They don't care that the result might leave them worse off if they feel like they have nothing to lose anyway and voting leave results in a big **** you to the political establishment.  

 

[AJ]

18 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

For a lot of 'leave' voters it seems like this was a Donald Trump style protest vote. They don't care that the result might leave them worse off if they feel like they have nothing to lose anyway and voting leave results in a big **** you to the political establishment.  

 

I see what you mean, and that must be so disappointing for the people who actually care about Britain rather than what is inside the shells of their own opinions. Unfortunately, we are seeing this happen in other countries, like the Philippines and to some extent Australia. We have an election next week, and there is a lot of proclamations of people claiming to be either left or right wing, and not giving a damn about the issues. Regardless of the issue is or what is said, they will support their "side" like as if they were at the footy. I am probably being idealistic here, but I wish we could do away with all this left/right wing bullshit and just focus on the issues and rational solutions. If you lean to the left or the right without looking forward, you end up going in circles.

[Awol]

I voted leave, as did most of my family and friends. Not because we are, uneducated, stupid, racist or wanting to kick the establishment.  We did it because we all thought it is in the best interests of the country in the long term. 

I know a few people who voted Remain but they have, save one, taken the result with good grace and accepted it. The one who hasn't is filthy rich and is angry that he will lose a few quid on his investments. 

On balance I think the country has done the right thing and in light of the ongoing political fratricide, we may end up in a few months with political parties that more broadly represent the electorate. A very good thing if it turns out that way.

[cyrusr]

(Apologies for the long post, I would appreciate if you read though).

 

Right. I have had a couple of days now to reflect on the vote. I am still annoyed about how some voters have been so stupid. The reports of people calling up to change votes/to vote/regretting vote/voting based on lies/ people shouting at non-British people to"get out" just infuriate me and show how moronic people are about not understanding the significance of their vote. This is the reason why I would say that this was a massive, massive fail for democracy and makes me very worried for the future.

Let's take a step back though. 

The Reasons People Voted they Way They Did

In my opinion, there appears to be a number of different types of votes for the referendum and why they voted the way they did. Actually for most, it's probably a mixture of the reasons. If anyone has different reasons please say but I think it goes something like this:

Leave:-

1. People believed that the European Union is not the one of the 70s and do not wish to be a part of it.
2. People who believed that being out of the European Union is genuinely better for the Britain economically.
3. People who did not want the political union and the "federalisation" of Europe.
4. People who wanted to stay in but under different rules; however when given a forced option feel leave was better.
5. People who believed that leaving the EU would stop immigration coming to this country, taking our benefits and jobs and mean the jobs/money will go to British people.
6. People who used it as a protest vote against austerity/the establishment/Cameron and didn't realise what their vote meant.

Remain:

1. People who thought it would be better for the economy to remain in the European Union.
2. People who were wanting more integration and believed it is stronger to stay together with Europe, regardless of the political integration needed. 
3. People who wanted to stay in but under different rules; however when given a forced option felt remain was better.
4. People who regardless of whether they wanted to leave or remain, but wanted stability in the country.

Non-voters:-

1. Those that were physically unable to.
2. Those not bothered.
3. Those that were too overwhelmed/confused by the campaigning that they were not sure which way to vote.
4. Those who thought their side would win so didn't need to vote.

Like I said, not necessarily a complete list but I think/hope this encompasses the majority of voters at least. 

Now of the leave vote people in categories 1-4 (not eu from 70s, better economically, don't want federal Europe, want to change but better to leave) absolutely wonderful sign of democracy. Completely disagree with it, however I completely accept their rights to have a view, rights to express that and right to vote. They are the informed voter, and actually given the demographic of voters etc. I would think that category 1 (different to the one agreed to) is probably the highest category as it would be the really only the older voters who would primarily understand this. Thank you for your vote, I disagree with you but you are a true sign of debate/decision/independent thought and reasoning.

People who voted in category 5 (immigration) are idiots. If they thought a vote to leave the EU would stop immigration are just wrong. Given that the majority of immigrants are non-EU anyway, given the massive misconception regarding benefits and non-British people (who in the majority CANNOT claim benefits). In actual fact, in my job, I see far, far more British people sitting on their backsides doing nothing and thinking that the world owes them everything. They are far more of a problem but that's another story. The point is, this is where the misconception is and how this referendum should NEVER have been about immigration. This is, in my opinion, a massive failing of the remain campaign for not eliminating, or certainly minimising the number of voters for this reason. Democracy has been failed.

People in category 6 however are complete idiots and who I despair at the most. This was the most significant vote of a generation and you wanted to use it simply as protest against the government? ARE YOU CRAZY?! This is a democracy, not a popularity contest. This is the reason why it should never, ever have been a referendum. This is the society that makes me feel utterly ashamed to be British. America needs to take massive note of the referendum and realise who they are actually voting for in Trump as I really think that will be an even bigger mistake. There is no thought/understanding/consideration of the issues, it's a "I don't like them so I will vote the other way". It should be about who you believe will do the best or where you think will be best for the country. This shows where democracy has been failed. 

With the remain voters, category 1-3 (economy, political integration, want to change but better to stay in) the same applies as to the leave voters. Great to express your opinion and a true sign of democracy working. Fantastic. 

Category 4 voters (stability) I get. However, there could be stability in leaving IF done right. If we have the right negotiators, proper leadership to steer through it, people with a plan and determination to get the best for Britain. The EU will not want us to be lost as trading partner, of course not. As such I think this reason should be better explained or the campaign should have done better to inform the voters. These voters were failed by the campaigns in my opinion and that democracy has suffered because of it.

For the non voters, categories 1 (unable) and 2 (not bothered) will always happen. Cannot force people to vote, but people will always have their reasons.

Category 3 (couldn't decide) shows 2 things. Firstly that the issue is exceptionally complex and raises the question why it was a referendum and secondly that both campaigns didn't make it clear to the voters in order for them to make an informed decision. To me this shows failings in the democracy. 

Category 4 (people who thought their side would win so didn't bother) are morons. This is your 1 chance to make your voice heard. As has been shown, every vote counts and there is 1 opportunity, that's it. This is a massive failure of understanding what it means to be given the right to vote and what people have fought (and died) for. I appreciate some do this in the general election because they are in "safe" seats that won't change. Still disagree and people should still vote, but I get the voter apathy and where (in my opinion) we should be looking at alternative voting methods and proportional representation. However this is also for another day/argument. The point is though, that for this literally every vote counted. Now whether this was the fault of the campaigns not making it clear or the people not appreciating I cannot be sure, but it is not great for democracy that is for sure. 

 Why Leave Won

In hindsight (that glorious, glorious thing), actually I am not that surprised that Leave won. What the remain campaign failed to do was seize upon the undecided/confused/ignorant/unappreciated/lost voters and make them understand their case. This is why it was so close and leave won. The remain campaign did just assume they would win and that would shut the right wing up and as such didn't give it their all. The leave campaign fought with every bit of effort, lies (and they did) and making points that sounded significant but completely irrelevant. They ran a far, far better campaign and as known, they won. 

In my opinion, I genuinely believe that some of the leave voters voted for the wrong reason. If the remain campaign had done its job properly we would still be in the EU. I think their were enough swing voters to change the results and the remain campaign lost it. In particular they failed to differentiate the fact that this should NEVER have been a protest vote. Now one of the biggest decisions of the U.K. has been made, and the protest vote swung it without realising the consequences. This is why democracy has failed and shows that people have forgotten/do not realise what their vote actually means and just how important it is. 

The Future

There are 2 worries for the future.

Firstly, and the more immediate concern, now that we have voted leave, it needs to be put into action. It is clear that the leave campaign never believed they would win, and actually cannot agree on how it should be done. The problem is the governing party has just lost its leader because of this (his own fault mind) and, as has been mentioned, is an utterly poisoned chalice. Even if someone wanted it, are you happy with the prospect of Prime Minister Johnson/Osbourne/Gove/May? Quite frankly all of them worry me. I did not like Cameron, however given the options (on all parties), the saying "better the devil you know" comes to mind and actually probably the best of a bad bunch. 

But now 1 of them is going to lead this country and do something they didn't want to do (Johnson) or call a snap election and probably give more power to UKIP (again, another point for another day). I completely agree, leaving doesn't need to be a disaster and can be worked properly, however do you trust any of the politicians to do it right? The best reassurance that appears to have come out is "it'll be all right, don't be such sore losers". That simply won't do and reinforces the view that the leave campaign had no idea or agreement of how it would be implemented. 

Secondly, protest votes are dangerous. It is how the Nazi got into Germany, it is how UKIP has done so well over the last few elections, why Trump is 1 of 2 people who will be president of America in November. They spout anti-establishment nonsense, say they are with you and give the easier answer to your problems. They are not your friends, they do not understand what you have come through and are simply using voters for their own gain. If people do not understand the risks of this, then we will sleepwalk into massive trouble and the 70 years of world peace (more or less) is in fact at significant risk. People in the 21st century need a lesson in what their vote means and why they are voting. 

634,751. That was the swing. That is less than 1% of the population; 1.37% of the electorate. From what is coming out afterwards the vote, I would guarantee that more than 1.37% of the voters used it as a protest vote  and that is why this referendum has failed. 

This is why democracy has been failed and why I worry for what is going to happen in the future.

[This Could Be Rotterdam]

Sajid Javid has just been on Andrew marr and admitted that the 'punishment budget' was never going to happen and that if they try to make it work there won't be a recession. Will the uproar following this be equal to farage? The only difference between the two statements being that they made the budget statement in a position where they knew they could enforce it so hoped people would have to believe it would be implemented. Farage made his statement when he, and everyone else, knew he wasn't actually in a position to implement it. I know which I think is worse...

[Davkaus]

The Lib Dems are going to campaign for the next GE on the platform of rejecting the referendum and staying in the EU.

I guess it can't exactly lose them anymore seats.

[AshVilla]

4 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

The Lib Dems are going to campaign for the next GE on the platform of rejecting the referendum and staying in the EU.

I guess it can't exactly lose them anymore seats.

I suppose they also going to oppose increasing tuition fees as well

[jon_c]

7 minutes ago, AshVilla said:

I suppose they also going to oppose increasing tuition fees as well

Or spending £350m on the NHS.

I think we've pretty much established any campaign that didn't actually think it was going to win, and make good it's promises, will promise any old s**t.

[Awol]

29 minutes ago, This Could Be Rotterdam said:

Sajid Javid has just been on Andrew marr and admitted that the 'punishment budget' was never going to happen and that if they try to make it work there won't be a recession. Will the uproar following this be equal to farage? The only difference between the two statements being that they made the budget statement in a position where they knew they could enforce it so hoped people would have to believe it would be implemented. Farage made his statement when he, and everyone else, knew he wasn't actually in a position to implement it. I know which I think is worse...

Yep, the Remain campaign really was a string of beautifully choreographed whoppers, from the Treasury to Obama and almost everything in between. 

[snowychap]

26 minutes ago, This Could Be Rotterdam said:

Sajid Javid has just been on Andrew marr and admitted that the 'punishment budget' was never going to happen and that if they try to make it work there won't be a recession. Will the uproar following this be equal to farage?

I haven't watched it and all I've read is the brief bit on the beeb website where it says:

Quote

Mr Javid, a close ally of Mr Osborne, also declined to comment on whether there would be an emergency budget.

If Javid actually confirmed that he and his fellow government ministers lied in their campaigning then yes he should receive the same level of opprobrium and it should be added to the pile of crap that tells people not to trust what politicians tell them in campaigns (or elsewhere, for that matter).

[a m ole]

Sturgeon talking about Scotland's ability to block the move, and along with that Reddit analysis of DCs resignation checkmate I get the feeling this is FAR from over.

[StefanAVFC]

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

Quote

As these seem like incidents we should all be aware of I've made an album for them.

So sad that this vote has given the bottom feeders of the country the opportunity to be openly racist and xenophobic to their fellow men and women.

[Xela]

31 minutes ago, a m ole said:

Sturgeon talking about Scotland's ability to block the move, and along with that Reddit analysis of DCs resignation checkmate I get the feeling this is FAR from over.

She needs to stop talking out of her hat. They are part of the UK and unfortunately the UK has voted to leave. 

 

[Davkaus]

She seems to have some support in the HOL. I don't expect Scotland to veto leaving the EU, even if they can, but I expect it to be a major bargaining chip in securing another Scottish Independence referendum.

[Chindie]

44 minutes ago, Xela said:

She needs to stop talking out of her hat. They are part of the UK and unfortunately the UK has voted to leave. 

 

There is a piece of legislation that potentially means she may be correct in saying Scotland could block/frustrate the move. In reality it's exceptionally unlikely though.

And of course the only reason she would even attempt to do it is to force another independence referendum. Everything Sturgeon does is framed in those terms. They can smell a nailed on referendum and nailed on win, anything that stokes that they will be after like a boistrous staffy with a cuddly toy .

Edited June 26, 2016 by Chindie

[darrenm]

4 hours ago, Awol said:

I voted leave, as did most of my family and friends. Not because we are, uneducated, stupid, racist or wanting to kick the establishment.  We did it because we all thought it is in the best interests of the country in the long term. 

I know a few people who voted Remain but they have, save one, taken the result with good grace and accepted it. The one who hasn't is filthy rich and is angry that he will lose a few quid on his investments. 

On balance I think the country has done the right thing and in light of the ongoing political fratricide, we may end up in a few months with political parties that more broadly represent the electorate. A very good thing if it turns out that way.

So with what's happened since, are you starting to think you were wrong and the experts were right? Or were you expecting this level of shit storm?

[HanoiVillan]

8 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said:

We are getting heaps of reports in Australia about people who regret their Leave vote and didn't actually think Leave would get up.

 

We have a federal election in a week and i'm using the example set in the UK of why it's important to vote properly for something that actually represents your interests. There are a few useful tools on the net like https://votecompass.abc.net.au/ which can help Australians figure out who to vote for even if they don't care or don't like any of the candidates. 

 

I feel like the Brexit result might change the course of how people vote and how much they educate themselves on what they are voting for across the Western world in the short to medium term.

What I like about Australian elections is mandatory voting. I'd love it here but it'll never happen. 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said:

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

So sad that this vote has given the bottom feeders of the country the opportunity to be openly racist and xenophobic to their fellow men and women.

It's true , I was in Tesco yesterday and the assistant asked this Polish couple if they needed a hand packing ... I thought steady on we haven't even formally left yet