Refugee crisis

[chrisp65]

I suspect Tony is the script writer for Holby City.

 

yeah yeah, I don't know what that is either...

[MakemineVanilla]

Ermie, please forgive me but I'm fascinated by this not being allowed to wear the kippah. Bit of a learning curve for me this subject.

I've just looked up a random 3 NHS Trust dress codes, this one (Norwich University Hospital) was absolutely typical:

3.2 Religious Dress Requirements Although the Trust welcomes the variety of appearances brought by individual styles, choices and religious requirements regarding dress; this will be treated sensitively and will be agreed on an individual basis with the Manager and Trust and must conform to health, safety and security regulations, infection prevention and control and moving and handling guidelines. The wearing of saris, turbans, skullcaps, hijabs, kippahs and clerical collars arising from particular cultural / religious norms are seen as part of welcoming diversity. 

The All Wales NHS dress code advisory simply says keep hair neat and tidy, cover up body piercings, no false nails, respect religious requirements that aren't in contravention of hygene rules.

Specific Welsh Trusts all appear to say religious clothing is ok, Cardiff & Vale, UHW Trust etc.. There is a grievance procedure if you've been specifically told otherwise. You need to write in, they need to tell you in writing why they are saying no. Obviously I don't know the specifics of your circumstances. The code does state that those interacting or dealing directly with the public CANNOT wear full length sleeves, full length floor touching clothes or full facial coverings. So muslim women interacting directly with patients cannot wear whatever they like.

You need to talk to your union if you've been told you can't wear a cap, it's wrong.

I'm fairly familiar with Treorchy too. Population well under about 10,000? Not sure I've ever noticed a significantly large muslim community there? Certainly never felt any sort of menace? But then, I will concede I don't wear and religious identifiers. Is it Swansea perhaps where you think you might experience trouble?

 

My take on this would be bring the next seriously ill Muslim in and give him a Jewish doctor wearing a kippah ... and say your choices are be treated by a jewish doctor or die  ..  a  muslim woman  in niqab treating a Britain first numpty , gay doctor to treat a homophobe etc

 

it will soon sort out all this stupidity as the stubborn ones will all be dead

That is so disappointing Tony.

All that good work producing convincing cynical and glib posts, and you go and reveal yourself as an authoritarian right on dude. 

 

[StefanAVFC]

 

So stop talking tosh, you're only vilifying yourself with your lack of understanding about the subject.  Don't forget, there are lots of people on this website that read these threads that follow Islam, and they've got to read your ramblings about their entire culture/civilisation which are frankly absurd.  Stop being so insensitive and stop reading Britain First an other medias of it's ilk.

Spot on.

All you're doing Ruge is making yourself look ignorant at best, racist at worst.

You're not posting any facts. Just generalised opinions.

[MakemineVanilla]

christianity in the middle east is rapidly on the decline and christians are being horribly persecuted, i think this is common knowledge and in years to come it will be near enough wiped out in that part of the world. islam though is on the rise in the west and will only increase its presence. are muslims being persecuted in the west? no they are being able to practise their faith freely and build even more mosques, would this happen with christians in the middle east? most muslims are peaceful but there are millions who believe in the radical side of islam and thats the problem, the negative islam easily defeats any positive in its religion. are there any anti islam propoganda being taught in schools in the uk and even the middle east? plenty of anti jewish and christian propoganda being taught over in the middle east though and even in this country you hear of kids being exposed to radicalised teachings. cartoons with anti western propoganda, school books with anti western propoganda its no wonder kids over there at an early age believe its the norm to hate the west, some people might blame the west for invading muslim countries but what about the thousands of muslims getting killed by their own people during civil war? are we to blame for that as well.

Is this statement unfactual?

The quote:

Most people in the West would be surprised by the answer to the question: who are the most persecuted people in the world? According to the International Society for Human Rights, a secular group with members in 38 states worldwide, 80 per cent of all acts of religious discrimination in the world today are directed at Christians.

 

The link: http://tinyurl.com/mq49qa9

[Rugeley Villa]

**** hell Ruge, you've made a right tit of yourself there mate.  You're not coming up with facts at all, you're just making sweeping generalisations and picking (not even) figures out of the air.

We get that you're not a big fan of Islam, but there aren't "millions" of radical Muslims at all.

I actually surveyed 2 of the schools which were teaching these "radical islam" kids in Birmingham 2 years ago, the kids were normal and the teachers were welcoming, it must have been some pretty obscure lessons because all I saw were normal things going on in the school.  There were no AK47 training lessons, there were no maps of important landmarks with crudely red crosses saying "target", mostly just a mini petting zoo, a few nice fish tanks and pretty pictures of all different kinds of kids holding hands.

So stop talking tosh, you're only vilifying yourself with your lack of understanding about the subject.  Don't forget, there are lots of people on this website that read these threads that follow Islam, and they've got to read your ramblings about their entire culture/civilisation which are frankly absurd.  Stop being so insensitive and stop reading Britain First an other medias of it's ilk.

the facts i meant were about christianity being wiped out in the middle east and islam steadily growing in europe. regarding millions of muslims who are extremists i bet my bottom dollar that there are millions who are either terrorists or support terrorism, ive also never said i knew a great deal about the subject but just airing my opinions on an open forum. just because someone thinks islam is not very peaceful or vents concerns about it, it does not mean they are racist. reading this muslims might think id be best avoided but thats far from the truth and id love nothing more than islam to sort its shit out and prove the world and me wrong. concern about islam is very widespread in my world, be it family members,friends,work colleagues even just generalpeople i bump into but on VT it seems that majority are against anyone who slates islam and thats fair enough. i do understand that i may come across a certain way but its just me being me in terms of having my view on this subject, im not the most educated person in the world on world matters but surely im entitled to discuss my feelings towards islam etc etc. if i have offended muslim members on here i am truly sorry and i do mean that but its my views and its not going to make me go round attacking muslims or going on anti islam demos, far from it.

 

anyway i see saudi arabia are saying they will build 200 mosques in germany for the immigrants, why dont they take some in and just build them there? just a thought.

[Stevo985]

@Rugeley Villa , What's the difference between the anti jewish and christian propaganda that you're criticising occurring in the middle east, and the anti Islam propaganda you've written in that post?

Just bumping this question. I assume Ruge missed it.

[Rugeley Villa]

@Rugeley Villa , What's the difference between the anti jewish and christian propaganda that you're criticising occurring in the middle east, and the anti Islam propaganda you've written in that post?

Just bumping this question. I assume Ruge missed it.

im not going around saying all non believers should be killed and saying kill muslims, im not saying all muslims are bad or even everything about islam is bad. id never bring my children up to hate anyone.

Edited September 15, 2015 by Rugeley Villa

[foreveryoung]

Anyway. As quoted many posts before I see this refugee crisis is getting well out of hand due to the fact Germany saying all are welcome. Serbia closing borders, Hungary closing borders frack me even Germany are saying slow it down.

What gets me is, as we all know the media are mostly goverment driven so don't expect to hear its a major crisis and the EU have no idea how to deal with it.. We all know this is beyond control and is turning into on of the worst we have seen in many years.

Many of us are already saying we told you so!

[TrentVilla]

Regardless of the swaying of public opinion, or should I say the media's spin on public opinion, I rather suspect that if the referendum on EU membership were tomorrow we would be heading for an exit.

This whole situation is another example of how the EU is a failed institution, just like with Greece, just like when the first boats started capsizing on route to Italy. The EU has failed in its duty, failed as an institution and its hard not to imagine its days are numbered or at least our days as part of it are.

[foreveryoung]

Regardless of the swaying of public opinion, or should I say the media's spin on public opinion, I rather suspect that if the referendum on EU membership were tomorrow we would be heading for an exit.

This whole situation is another example of how the EU is a failed institution, just like with Greece, just like when the first boats started capsizing on route to Italy. The EU has failed in its duty, failed as an institution and its hard not to imagine its days are numbered or at least our days as part of it are.

Reminds me of FIFA. Run by bureucratic numptys, most of emm are taking a salary for F**** all. They are running out of ideas, an they have been losing support for years, mostly because their out of date ideology on Human Rights, which shockingly enough is another reason why we are now in a complete mess with this refugeee crisis.

[snowychap]

 

... mostly because their out of date ideology on Human Rights, which shockingly enough is another reason why we are now in a complete mess with this refugeee crisis.

What are you on about?

[foreveryoung]

 

... mostly because their out of date ideology on Human Rights, which shockingly enough is another reason why we are now in a complete mess with this refugeee crisis.

What are you on about?

EU human rights is insane, Getting in the way of deporting known terrorists from UK for one example.

[snowychap]

 

EU human rights is insane, Getting in the way of deporting known terrorists from UK for one example.

What 'EU human rights'?

Do you mean the European Convention on Human Rights?

[Chindie]

I'm willing to bet there's more to anything like that apparent story than 'EU 'uman Rights born mad!'. Not that such a thing exists.

Anyway, the EU struggling with this situation, and I don't think it's a crisis or anything of the sort, is a lot to do with the fact it's an unprecedented event, and also the fact the EU has no real guidance in anything like this. It's an example of the organisation developing naturally as things progress. It's never had this problem, it was never designed from the ground up to deal with this, and it'll try to react to it instead. A lot of the problems the EU has are due to the fact it's been cobbled together over the years with no grand plan, and this will be just the latest one.

[Ikantcpell]

I have another question for you AWOL

Who are the majority of the refugees fleeing from, is it Assad or Isis?

[darrenm]

Google matching all donations up to €10m for refugee and migrant crisis related charities such as MSF etc https://onetoday.google.com/page/refugeerelief/

[HanoiVillan]

Regardless of the swaying of public opinion, or should I say the media's spin on public opinion, I rather suspect that if the referendum on EU membership were tomorrow we would be heading for an exit.

This whole situation is another example of how the EU is a failed institution, just like with Greece, just like when the first boats started capsizing on route to Italy. The EU has failed in its duty, failed as an institution and its hard not to imagine its days are numbered or at least our days as part of it are.

I know opinion polls don't have the best track record over the last few months, but currently there is a lead of between 20-30% in polls for staying in the EU. In general, support for leaving has declined in recent years. 

EDIT: As a rough guide to where opinion stands, Paddy Power currently have voting to stay at 1/5, voting to leave at 3/1, so if you feel confident, there's money to be made here. 

Edited September 15, 2015 by HanoiVillan

[tonyh29]

ICM poll out today has it as 43% stay , 40% go and some polls since 2014 have had it as high as 51 % to leave ?

are you sure 20-30 % is correct ? 

[HanoiVillan]

Hadn't seen the ICM poll, thanks. I was going by this (from 3rd September):

I’ve been on holiday for the last week, but hopefully haven’t missed too much polling in the August after a general election! One thing that did happen was the Electoral Commission recommending (and the government accepting) a change in the wording of the EU referendum, from a YES/NO question to a REMAIN/LEAVE question. This raises the question of whether or not the wording makes a difference.

At the end of May ICM ran a split sample experiment, asking the then Yes/No version of the question and the remain/leave question that the Electoral Commission ended up recommending. On the Yes/No wording the result was YES 47%, NO 33%, DK 20%; on the Remain/Leave wording the result was YES 43%, NO 35%, DK 22%. Results are here.

ComRes ran a similar experiment at the same time, they asked the then Yes/No version of the question, and a more general question on whether people would vote to stay or leave in a referendum (it didn’t use the exact wording the Electoral Commission have now recommended). On the Yes/No wording the result was YES 58%, NO 31%, DK 11%. On the Stay/Leave question the result was STAY 51%, LEAVE 33%, DK 16%. Results are here.

YouGov haven’t done a split sample, but since the general election they have asked the question in two different ways – one asking the old Yes/No referendum question, and one asking if people would like Britain to remain or leave the European Union. Using the Yes/No referendum question they have found an average YES lead of 8 points. Using a question asking if people would vote for Britain to remain or stay, they have found an average REMAIN lead of 6 points (figures are here, here and here)

The scale of the difference varies between 2 and 9 points and only the ICM poll used the actual question wording. However, the general trend is clear, a remain/leave question seems to produce a smaller pro-EU lead than a yes/no question.

However, what difference the wording makes in an opinion poll is not necessarily the same question as what difference the wording makes in a referendum. An opinion poll is getting someone’s instant reaction having bombarded them with a question they may not have had a firm opinion upon until you asked. A referendum takes place after several weeks campaigning on the pros and cons on each side of the argument and what the implications and consequences of voting Yes or No (or Stay or Leave) might be. I suspect in a referendum, as opposed to an opinion poll, there is very little real difference between Yes/No and Remain/Leave.

[Awol]

I have another question for you AWOL

Who are the majority of the refugees fleeing from, is it Assad or Isis?

Both, and any or all of the 100's of other armed groups operating in Syria.   They are fleeing the war, their neighbours, conscription, an indefinite stay in a refugee camp, it's like the Lebanon in the 80's but on a much bigger scale. For as long as outside actors continue feeding ammunition, men and money to their favoured bandits it will continue, because no single side has the strength to overcome the others and enforce their will.  

What I'm certain we will see (although who knows when) is a genocide event when one group surges in a particular area, takes a heavily populated piece of regime terrain and slaughters the inhabitants en masse.  Seems to me the refugees suspect the same outcome, hence the exodus we are seeing now.  The reaction to that will determine the future, either we'll turn away like in Rwanda, or we will go in to impose a solution as we did in Bosnia - although we sat on the sidelines until 500,000 people in a European country were dead.