Refugee crisis

[TrentVilla]

its like right your a muslim so you must be a terrorist or have extremist views or its you dont approve of islam so you are a racist, absolute bullshit.

Not really. A well formed argument against Islam would be intelligently debated I would assume.

 

But sweeping generalisations not backed up by any facts will get the responses you've encountered. Most of your posts are buzzwords with no actual facts to back them up.

its just my opinion from what i see and read and no i dont read any far right bullshit. i just happen to believe in all this hype about islam and you dont, i dont make out to know the in's and out's. do you really know enough about islam to convince you its all ok? 

We've been here before, several times, haven't we.

You've seemingly made a decision on everyone of the muslim faith based on what you've read in the media (a large amount of which is right wing) and your own limited integration with people of that faith. This despite the fact that there are about 1.6 billion muslims on the planet across the globe many of whom can't agree with each other let alone share some uniform identity and set of values.

Frankly fella, its a bit daft not to mention prejudice. No matter how many times you say "its just your experience" etc it doesn't change that.

This has been explained numerous times, yet you continue to repeat variations along the same theme and then seem surprised when people point out its a bit daft and prejudice.

I don't think you need to know a single thing about Islam to know that 1.6 billion people can't be pigeon holed purely on the basis of their religion.

[Rugeley Villa]

ive not pigeon holed 1.6 billion muslims.

[Rugeley Villa]

its like right your a muslim so you must be a terrorist or have extremist views or its you dont approve of islam so you are a racist, absolute bullshit.

Not really. A well formed argument against Islam would be intelligently debated I would assume.

 

But sweeping generalisations not backed up by any facts will get the responses you've encountered. Most of your posts are buzzwords with no actual facts to back them up.

its just my opinion from what i see and read and no i dont read any far right bullshit. i just happen to believe in all this hype about islam and you dont, i dont make out to know the in's and out's. do you really know enough about islam to convince you its all ok? 

I don't really need to reply. You've basically just admitted why your views on this are the way they are.

 

You believe the hype, without knowing the ins and outs.

 

I genuinely couldn't have put it better myself

do you know the ins and outs regarding islam? 

 

bugger it im out of this thread you will all be pleased to know as im obviously not clued up enough to take part in this thread.

[Stevo985]

I don't need to know one single thing about Islam to know that I shouldn't base my opinion of billions of people based on an extremist minority

[omariqy]

I mean you could just ask the muslims on this thread about Islam if you don't know anything about it.  I mean you know, it's just a thought.

[darrenm]

I mean you could just ask the muslims on this thread about Islam if you don't know anything about it.  I mean you know, it's just a thought.

There can't be any, they would have blown the thread up surely.

[TrentVilla]

I mean you could just ask the muslims on this thread about Islam if you don't know anything about it.  I mean you know, it's just a thought.

 

There can't be any, they would have blown the thread up surely.

Only if they are male and over the age of 18. Obviously.

[omariqy]

Look I don't think Ruge is racist or anything like that. Like many his views are based on what he hears and reads. Like I've always said if anyone has questions about Islam rather than the politics surrounding it then I am happy answer as best as I can.

[lapal_fan]

DU U LIEK CURRY? I HAD A CURRY ONCE AND I BUNRT MY MOUF SO I H8 ISLAMBS NOW SOZ

[Keyblade]

Look I don't think Ruge is racist or anything like that. Like many his views are based on what he hears and reads. Like I've always said if anyone has questions about Islam rather than the politics surrounding it then I am happy answer as best as I can.

Me as well. I agree that I don't think he's racist but just way too caugt up in the fearmongering and hysteria whipped up by the media. It's ignorance more than anything. But then again, if I knew next to nothing about a group of people I would never make generalizations or assumptions of them as that just isn't fair. Prejudice would be the right word for it I think.

[YLN]

Look I don't think Ruge is racist or anything like that. Like many his views are based on what he hears and reads. Like I've always said if anyone has questions about Islam rather than the politics surrounding it then I am happy answer as best as I can.

I had a friend from Iraq/Afghanistan. We would frequently make jokes to him about being a terrorist and similar. One day he took me aside and said that he didn't mind the jokes, but he really can't tolerate basically any mention of Allah. Are all Muslims like this? And then even though Allah and the Christian god are the same, is it just using the word Allah that he would have a problem with because it is a non-Muslim using a Muslim word so it's relevant to his personal God, or is it any mention of God? Would you get angry at your non-Muslim friends if they said Allah was not all he's cracked up to be. Would you be as annoyed if they said that God was a dickhead? Even through they're talking about the same entity. 

My next question is about forgiveness. Is forgiveness given similar weighting in Islam as it is in Christianity? And what about love thy neighbour. If these or similar ideas are given the same weighting, do you think that Muslim people follow such principles more closely than Christian people do? Generally speaking. 

What about materialism? Harder for a rich man to get into heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. Is there anything like that in Islam? And if there is, what of the Sheikhs? Are they bad Muslims? We're told that the extremist Muslims dislike Western philosophies of consumerism and sexual extravagance. Is that a consistent idea in non-extremist Islam as well? What do you think about the Islamification of Iran? And the picures of Iranian women in the 1970's in Iran with no head scarves and looking pretty groovy. Do you think that what has been introduced to Iran is the same religion to which you assign yourself, or have been assigned?

[TreeVillan]

The words of Sir Winston Churchill

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

 

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

[Keyblade]

What a load of *****

[omariqy]

The words of Sir Winston Churchill

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

 

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

The words of Sir Winston Churchill

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

 

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Pretty much all of that is bollocks considering what Islam has done for the world in terms of science, agriculture, women's rights etc. There is a distinction to be made between what Islam teaches and how bad people implement it.

If we are quoting famous people, here's a few:

What famous non-Muslims said about Islam and Prophet Muhammad PBUH

Napoleon Bonaparte

I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Quran which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.

 

Sir George Bernard Shaw

I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity.

I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.

 

H.G. Wells

The Islamic teachings have left great traditions for equitable and gentle dealings and behaviour, and inspire people with nobility and tolerance. These are human teachings of the highest order and at the same time practicable. These teachings brought into existence a society in which hard-heartedness and collective oppression and injustice were the least as compared with all other societies preceding it… Islam is replete with gentleness, courtesy, and fraternity.

[MakemineVanilla]

The words of Sir Winston Churchill

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

 

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities - but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

I think Churchill was trying to justify his part in the wholesale slaughter of Muslims in the battle of Omdurman, when 20 000 British troops armed with machine-guns and rifles took on 52 000 tribesmen armed with pointed sticks.

The Sudanese suffered 93% casualties and 10 000 dead, compared with only 48 dead British.

To justify such slaughter the enemy has to be dehumanised and his religion traduced.

[omariqy]

Look I don't think Ruge is racist or anything like that. Like many his views are based on what he hears and reads. Like I've always said if anyone has questions about Islam rather than the politics surrounding it then I am happy answer as best as I can.

I had a friend from Iraq/Afghanistan. We would frequently make jokes to him about being a terrorist and similar. One day he took me aside and said that he didn't mind the jokes, but he really can't tolerate basically any mention of Allah. Are all Muslims like this? And then even though Allah and the Christian god are the same, is it just using the word Allah that he would have a problem with because it is a non-Muslim using a Muslim word so it's relevant to his personal God, or is it any mention of God? Would you get angry at your non-Muslim friends if they said Allah was not all he's cracked up to be. Would you be as annoyed if they said that God was a dickhead? Even through they're talking about the same entity. 

My next question is about forgiveness. Is forgiveness given similar weighting in Islam as it is in Christianity? And what about love thy neighbour. If these or similar ideas are given the same weighting, do you think that Muslim people follow such principles more closely than Christian people do? Generally speaking. 

What about materialism? Harder for a rich man to get into heaven than a camel through the eye of a needle. Is there anything like that in Islam? And if there is, what of the Sheikhs? Are they bad Muslims? We're told that the extremist Muslims dislike Western philosophies of consumerism and sexual extravagance. Is that a consistent idea in non-extremist Islam as well? What do you think about the Islamification of Iran? And the picures of Iranian women in the 1970's in Iran with no head scarves and looking pretty groovy. Do you think that what has been introduced to Iran is the same religion to which you assign yourself, or have been assigned?

Not sure I would like someone making jokes about me being a terrorist but anyhoo.  We hold the prophets in such high esteem that any bad word said against them will be met with anger and sadness. Likewise God. Allah and God is the same entity to us depending on the context.  I have plenty of debates with atheists etc or use words like sky fairies etc. You could take that to heart but that is their view and part of the debate. I certainly don't wish any ill on them and happy to debate.

On forgivness, it's very much the same in Islam. Certainly in everyday life. When someone is coming into your home and killing your family and destroying your place to live then it is a whole different ball game I suppose.

{those who avoid major sins and acts of indecencies and when they are angry they forgive.}(Al-Shura 42:37)

Later in the same chapter God says:

{The reward of the evil is the evil thereof, but whosoever forgives and makes amends, his reward is upon God} (Al-Shura 42: 40)

In another place the Quran says:

{If you punish, then punish with the like of that wherewith you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, indeed it is better for the patient. Endure you patiently. Your patience is not except through the help of God…} (Al-Nahl 16:126-27)

In one the famous sayings of the Prophet (peace be upon him) it is reported that he said that God commanded him about nine things. One of them he mentioned was “that I forgive those who do wrong to me.”

Prophet Muhammad was the most forgiving person. He was ever ready to forgive his enemies. When he went to Ta'if to preach God’s message to its people, they mistreated him. They abused him and hit him with stones. He left the city humiliated and wounded.

When he took shelter under a tree, God’s angel appeared to him and told him that God was very angry with the people of Taif and sent him to destroy them because they mistreated God’s beloved Prophet. The Prophet prayed to God to save the people of Ta’if, because what they did was out of their ignorance. He said: “O Allah, guide these people, because they did not know what they were doing.” (Al-Bukhari)

When he entered the city of Makkah after the victory, the Prophet  had in front of him some of his staunchest enemies. Those who fought him for many years, persecuted his followers and killed many of them. Now he had full power to do whatever he wanted to punish them for their crimes.

It is reported that the Prophet asked them: “What do you think I shall do to you now” They expected nothing but retaliation and pleaded for mercy. The Prophet said, “Today I shall say to you what Joseph (referring to Prophet Yusuf -peace be upon him- as mentioned in the Qur'an, Yusuf 12:92) said to his brothers” “No blame on you today. Go, you are all free.” (Al-Albani)

Soon they all came and accepted Islam at his hands. He forgave even Hend who had caused the murder of his uncle Hamza. After killing him, she had his body mutilated and chewed his liver. When she accepted Islam, the Prophet even forgave her

I don't think it is extremist to dislike consumerism and capitalism. There's certainly that element there amongst normal muslims. One of the fundamental principles in Islam is that no interest should be  earned or taken.  Don't get me started on the Sheikhs. I don't really know enough about Iran to be honest. I certainly don't think wearing a headscarf makes you a person that is persecuted. I would say the vast majority of women in the UK who wear the headscarf or niqab do it out of their own choice. The idea behind it is modesty and freedom to not be judged by how you look. 

[tonyh29]

Pretty much all of that is bollocks considering what Islam has done for the world in terms of science, agriculture, women's rights etc. There is a distinction to be made between

With respect  ,  the trouble is most of those advances were about 800 years ago  ... you'll struggle to convince even the most die hard liberal that Islam has advanced the cause of women's rights in recent times .

And I say this hopefully not of ignorance and hopefully without causing offence

[Keyblade]

Not a fan of the sky fairy business, comes across as immature and arrogant. The kind of stuff you see posted by the fedora-tipping euphoric gentlesirs over at r/atheism.

 

Pretty much all of that is bollocks considering what Islam has done for the world in terms of science, agriculture, women's rights etc. There is a distinction to be made between

With respect  ,  the trouble is most of those advances were about 800 years ago  ... you'll struggle to convince even the most die hard liberal that Islam has advanced the cause of women's rights in recent times .

And I say this hopefully not of ignorance and hopefully without causing offence

The majority of Muslims agree with this sentiment, even the extremists. Especially the extremists in some cases in fact. The irony is, while they pine for the Golden Age they oppose most of what that science and innovation stood for and just remember it as a time where the Muslims were strong rather than championing science and women's rights.

[omariqy]

Pretty much all of that is bollocks considering what Islam has done for the world in terms of science, agriculture, women's rights etc. There is a distinction to be made between

With respect  ,  the trouble is most of those advances were about 800 years ago  ... you'll struggle to convince even the most die hard liberal that Islam has advanced the cause of women's rights in recent times .

And I say this hopefully not of ignorance and hopefully without causing offence

I wouldn't disagree with that. However those advances were pretty huge. I've always said there is a distinction to be made with what Islam actually says and how some people implement it. Case in point Saudi with women not being able to drive. Plenty of hadith showing the prophets wives for example riding camels, running their own empires, being strong and independent women. Yet Saudi choose to ignore that. Islam still to this day offers women plenty of rights and indeed more rights than men in some cases. The issue is that people choose to ignore it and use women for their own gain.

[tonyh29]

Pretty much all of that is bollocks considering what Islam has done for the world in terms of science, agriculture, women's rights etc. There is a distinction to be made between

With respect  ,  the trouble is most of those advances were about 800 years ago  ... you'll struggle to convince even the most die hard liberal that Islam has advanced the cause of women's rights in recent times .

And I say this hopefully not of ignorance and hopefully without causing offence

I wouldn't disagree with that. However those advances were pretty huge. I've always said there is a distinction to be made with what Islam actually says and how some people implement it. Case in point Saudi with women not being able to drive. Plenty of hadith showing the prophets wives for example riding camels, running their own empires, being strong and independent women. Yet Saudi choose to ignore that. Islam still to this day offers women plenty of rights and indeed more rights than men in some cases. The issue is that people choose to ignore it and use women for their own gain.

I've been lucky enough to see a lot of first hand so you won't get any arguments from me there  .... I always wonder did they start channelling too much into religion and building mosques rather than science and giving us structures like the Jantar Mantar  .. you type in 7 wonder of the Muslim world and the results are all mosques for example