Refugee crisis

[Awol]

@villakram: well, that's a pretty revealing post.

You're right of course we have indeed learned to live with some pretty unsavoury characters, but Islamic State's combination of fascism (dressed up as religion), expansionary territorial ambitions and threat to European domestic security mark it out as a threat that cannot be ignored. 

Like the Nazis before them Islamic State is beyond the Pale. Some well meaning people thought we could live with them too if only we gave up a little more to their ambitions. Few would argue now against dealing with them in 1933 given the benefit of hindsight.

Comparing IS to the Nazis is a little bit ridiculous. 

Horrifying as IS no doubt are, come back to me with those comparisons when they've put together an army that can march on Moscow, as opposed to one that has difficulty holding on to cities in Kurdistan. I doubt that anyone who actually lived through the 1930's would mistake the two situations.  

Not ridiculous at all, you'll note (or rather you didn't in your haste to dismiss the comparison) I referenced 1933 and whether with hindsight people would have dealt with the Nazis then, before they were capable of marching on Moscow. The inference being that IS are still in the early stages of their development and are defeatable at relatively low cost, for now. That aside...

If you substitute racial for religious ideology you get Islamic fascism, a doctrine that is actually more extreme than its Nazi equivalent.  You still have absolute obedience to the Dear Leader, exclusivity of the 'in group' (in this case Sunni Muslims of suitable piety rather than being of Aryan extraction) and the brutality towards 'out groups', in the case of IS that is Christians, Jews, Shia Muslims, basically anyone outwith their narrow doctrinaire religious world view. You could easily argue that the Nazis, although viewing themselves as the master race, were reasonably tolerant towards certain ethnic identities even though they were non Aryan, reserving their worst excesses for Slavs and Jews. Not so with IS.  Their territorial ambitions actual outstrip those of the Nazis when you look at the map of the Caliphate they wish to create.

The only reason IS aren't already murdering on the scale of the Nazis circa 1941-45 is a current lack of capability, but their intent to do so has been clearly expressed and is plainly visible in territory they have already taken over.  Should they succeed in knocking over Saudi Arabia they will have access to the world's 5th largest stockpile of military equipment and an awful lot of oil. This is very high on IS' to-do-list.  If you doubt that, their vision for the future and the extent of their ambition I'd suggest looking at the volumes of material that address the subject, or if you already have then perhaps taking them a little more seriously.  

Thanks for the patronising suggestion, but your argument still seems to rely on 'if we ignore all of the differences, then there are some similarities'. Lots of tinpot dictators and grandiose terrorist groups want to remake the world, it doesn't actually mean they're going to achieve it. 

The only reason IS aren't already murdering on the scale of the Nazis circa 1941-45 is a current lack of capability

You talk about this as if this is a trivial difference! They aren't going to 'knock over Saudi Arabia', the idea is absurd. But I'll tell you what, why don't we have a bet? If IS pose as much of a threat to us in 6 years time as the Nazis did 6 years after 1933, I will do or hand over literally anything you can possibly think of. 

It wasn't meant to be patronising so my apologies if that was how you took it. However, if you think the idea of IS toppling the Saudi regime is outlandish then many other people actually in the region and rather expert in these things disagree with you.  Don't think about it in terms of fighters coming over the border from Iraq and defeating the Saudi army, the threat is within the population and even within the army itself. The emotional and cultural attraction of the IS ideology is very powerful, being little different from that taught to generations of Saudis by their government approved Imams, through government funded mosques. The Saudi State is struggling, discontent is growing and IS is playing it all like a fiddle.  

I'm not interested in any bets thanks, just trying to offer a little bit of insight into what I believe is actually going on. 

[chrisp65]

Oooh, I just can't wait for the start of the DSEI trade fair at the ExCel Centre London. Doesn't start until Tuesday, but I'm thrilled that the main sponsors are the Ministry of Defence.

It's great to have an opportunity to sell weapons to any old **** with the cash. Hopefully we can shift some more weaponry over to the Congo, maybe Pakistan, even Somalia where the government we sponsor uses kids as soldiers.

I just hope, that after 10 years of shooting at people and blowing shit up with the british weapons they bought with british 'aid' they don't decide in their early twenties to be sponging economic migrants and walk to the UK with their twisted ideas on what 'normal' is.

Wouldn't want those sorts of problems turning up disguised as refugees.

Sponsor & Partner: MoD

Lilly livered pinko's

Somalia has received £6.7m of arms from the UK, including assault rifles, ammunition and vehicles, despite the UN documenting “the recruitment and useof 1,293 children” by al-Shabaab and the Somali National Army.

Edited September 13, 2015 by chrisp65
vote responsibly

[tonyh29]

Oooh, I just can't wait for the start of the DSEI trade fair at the ExCel Centre London. Doesn't start until Tuesday, but I'm thrilled that the main sponsors are the Ministry of Defence.

It's great to have an opportunity to sell weapons to any old **** with the cash. Hopefully we can shift some more weaponry over to the Congo, maybe Pakistan, even Somalia where the government we sponsor uses kids as soldiers.

I just hope, that after 10 years of shooting at people and blowing shit up with the british weapons they bought with british 'aid' they don't decide in their early twenties to be sponging economic migrants and walk to the UK with their twisted ideas on what 'normal' is.

Wouldn't want those sorts of problems turning up disguised as refugees.

Sponsor & Partner: MoD

Lilly livered pinko's

Somalia has received £6.7m of arms from the UK, including assault rifles, ammunition and vehicles, despite the UN documenting “the recruitment and useof 1,293 children” by al-Shabaab and the Somali National Army.

as the saying goes " guns don't kill people , Americans do "  ... just replace Americans with the country of choice in this instance

[Awol]

Seems Germany has cancelled cross border train services with Austria, reimposed border controls and - for now - suspended Schengen.

Munich is overrun and it might be dawning on Angela that when she said every Syrian could get asylum in Germany, they might just take her at her word. Of course those now being kept out will raise holy hell. All getting a bit messy.

[Dr_Pangloss]

The German's really have tried hard to destroy Europe over the past few years

[chrisp65]

Do you think simple logistics is beginning to dawn on them?

It's mid September, central europe is about to get cold and wet, 14,000 turned up in Munich this weekend, 8,000 are en route through Austria.

The sentiment of refuge is to be commended, but it has to be done properly, and filling the parks with tents will not be an answer that goes down well with anyone.

Simply building modular accommodation on the outskirts of conurbations will create ghettos. This needs a bit of planning and investment.

[Rugeley Villa]

this tide of migrants is another nail in europes coffin.

[StefanAVFC]

this tide of migrants is another nail in europes coffin.

What the **** does this even mean Ruge?

I mean come on.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Increasingly apparent that Germany only gives a **** about the EU and what it stands for as long as it benefits them.

 

[Dr_Pangloss]

Increasingly apparent that Germany only gives a **** about the EU and what it stands for as long as it benefits them.

 

This was always apparent. Merkel is a rank opportunist and an utter piece of scum. 

[Rugeley Villa]

this tide of migrants is another nail in europes coffin.

What the **** does this even mean Ruge?

I mean come on.

sorry for spouting the same old shit but europe has got a big problem and that problem is islam and the islaminization of europe and also the growth of this problem. same old argument going back and forth i know.

[chrisp65]

we'll be lucky if we get to Christmas - if we'll even be allowed to have Christmas

probably all have to dress like Ali Bongo too

 

[StefanAVFC]

this tide of migrants is another nail in europes coffin.

What the **** does this even mean Ruge?

I mean come on.

sorry for spouting the same old shit but europe has got a big problem and that problem is islam and the islaminization of europe and also the growth of this problem. same old argument going back and forth i know.

Xenophobic/borderline racist nonsense.

I've asked you to present some facts or justification for your statements and you keep saying 'it's what i see' or 'I'm just worried'.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

Somehow I don't think a small percentage of people is going to cause the 'Islamification' of Europe.

Just because a few mosques and halal butchers pop up doesn't mean your children are going to be subject to Sharia Law, ffs.

Edited September 13, 2015 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[StefanAVFC]

All this whole thing has done has given the people who are racist anyway, a reason to project their racist nonsense and for it to be okay because 'they're worried'.

[Rugeley Villa]

eact to their own and im not racist.

Somehow I don't think a small percentage of people is going to cause the 'Islamification' of Europe.

Just because a few mosques and halal butchers pop up doesn't mean your children are going to be subject to Sharia Law, ffs.

play it down why dont ya.

[StefanAVFC]

eact to their own and im not racist.

Somehow I don't think a small percentage of people is going to cause the 'Islamification' of Europe.

Just because a few mosques and halal butchers pop up doesn't mean your children are going to be subject to Sharia Law, ffs.

play it down why dont ya.

You're not exactly doing anything to disprove that.

And CED provides a point and you just dismiss it. Why isn't he right?

[Rugeley Villa]

why aint i right? because its considered racist? we are many years away but we will eventually get there where sharia law will come into place and islam will be as big a part in europe as any other religion. if people think im racist ok but i know i am not.

[chrisp65]

Rugeley, it sounds like you are about in the same place as my dad. He actually came around here this morning about something and again struck up the refugees conversation. I tried to change the subject as we clearly have different views. But he does appear to be genuinely worried that we are about to be taken over.

When I asked him how many people there were in europe he had no idea. I told him 750 million, 550 million of which are within the EU. 

How many migrants are coming? 40,000? 100,000? 2,000.00? 5,000,000?

If it's five million, how will they be taking over the lives of the seven hundred and fifty million?

There are big issues, there will be killings and shocks and scandals. Personally, I'd be much more worried about whether Russia decides to turn off the gas again this winter. THAT is a real concern. 

Chill out, we're on the same side as Belgium and Portugal, what could go wrong?

[StefanAVFC]

why aint i right? because its considered racist? we are many years away but we will eventually get there where sharia law will come into place and islam will be as big a part in europe as any other religion. if people think im racist ok but i know i am not.

But why? You're not giving any reasoning other than 'I'm worried about it'.