Mic09 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I actually meant I can't be arsed to argue with a point like that because it's clear where your intentions in this debate lie. Once you start to argue that taking guns out of the hands of ordinary citizens, often untrained and often idiots is akin to banning steak knives you've already lost. No, I actually need to leave the house. But please do tell me, where do my intentions lie? Just because people disagree on important legal matters does that mean you can ridicule their argument in the way that you just did? I do not believe banning guns for ordinary American citizens can solve anything. Right now, numerous illegal firearms lie in hands of criminals. In a country where gun crime is high, do you think that statistic would go down if mr Obama said that they are illegal? Do you think ordinary citizens would feel any safer? I have shown an example of a country with a high number of guns (i'm guessing 100% legal!) where gun crime is marginal. Number of guns is not a problem. It's the irresponsible access to them. But I do have to go now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 19, 2015 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it. Fewer cars equal fewer car crashes. Fewer knives mean fewer stabbings. Is it really that simple? Yes. In that case, let's delegalise all kitchen ware. I'm sure that would prevent at least 90% of domestic murders. But is this the way to go? Kitchen ware is benign, it's designed for kitchen stuff, that's what it does, it's possible to kill someone with a whisk, but you have to be pretty determined and you have to have a fair amount of energy and strength to do it. Cars are benign, they're designed to get you from A to B, it's possible to kill someone with one, but it would be seen as misuse. If the purpose of cars was for the killing of pedestrians, if that's what the car was for and its design was based around finding effective ways for you to do this, then I'd be in favour of banning it. It's not. Guns are for killing people. That's what they do. The idea that we should be allowing them outside of military situations is absurd. The US is in a difficult situation. It needs to stop the availability of guns to its general population and begin the process of removing guns from its streets - that's something that won't really make much of a difference for the next fifty or sixty years - it'll take a long time to make the US safer, but you have to start somewhere. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) In a country where gun crime is high, do you think that statistic would go down if mr Obama said that they are illegal? Yes quite a lot. Do you think ordinary citizens would feel any safer? Maybe not at first, but they will eventually...when so many people stop getting shot. ) Edited June 19, 2015 by Oaks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted June 19, 2015 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 19, 2015 I will repeat my point; it's not the guns that kill, it's the people Ridiculous straw man argument. Impossible to debate that. Exactly! You cannot argue a point like that! Other countries such as Switzerland do not have that problem, which suggests that maybe it's not the number of guns that is to be blamed... In Switzerland, as part of national service, once people have completed their stint in the armed forces, they are required to keep the weapon, they become an auxiliary of sorts. 46% is roughly equal to the number of people who were conscripted into national service. They didn't go out and buy a gun. Most of those people come out of the military and put the gun in a cellar or a locked box or an attic and never want to see it again. In fact, following the 2007 change that meant they didn't have to, most of these people don't keep ammunition for these guns. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 19, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2015 It's impossible to argue that the number of guns in the US doesn't affect the number of gun related crimes - ultimately the less guns there are, the less chances that one will be used. Unfortunately, that is a dead end for this discussion. There are too many guns in the US, and gun culture is too engrained, and the gun lobby subsequently too powerful, for guns to be significantly reduced in number. You can't un-invent the bomb, as the saying goes. You have to tackle what is wrong with the US and it's relationship with firearms. You can try to stem the flow of guns to people that shouldn't have them - it's absurd that laws to prohibit sales to people are undermined by the ability to purchase firearms at gun shows without the hoops to jump through (famously utilised in part by the Columbine killers). But ultimately you need to make steps towards fighting the concerning attitude towards them that means day to day people die. Even if you do that, this doesn't make this kind of thing go away. You will always have the nutter with a rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 cant believe this shit is still going on. as if the world aint got enough problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You can go on the Wal-Mart website and order a gun. That seems crazy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Perhaps it's difficult to reduce the number of guns, but surely ammunition could be controlled? Tax bullets to a ridiculous amount and have some way of tracking them back to their owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Lazy look on google, guns and ammo as an industry in the states is worth $42.9bn which generates $5.7bn in taxes so don't expect it to go away any time soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Designer1 Posted June 19, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2015 America always seems to protect it's guns more than it's people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl the Pearl Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 America always seems to protect it's guns more than it's people. That's because our government (I'm American) doesn't give a flying f*** about the people. In America, money is the only concern, and my goodness do guns bring in a ton of it. As I just said, I'm American and live in the North East where guns are less common. However, I still find it ridiculous that they're so easy to obtain. For instance, my brother, age 25, has three firearms. What does he need them for? The honest answer is that he doesn't, but he uses the same excuse that many Americans use, protection. I think the this, combined with the rapidly deteriorating mental state of the population, is the issue. Information about mental health issues is only now starting to become more widespread, and the current solution to most of these issues is medication, which in my opinion only exacerbates things. However, it's more profitable to give someone a monthly prescription than to encourage counselling. My solution would be to enforce strict and detailed gun safety courses as well as in-depth mental health evaluations for anyone that is trying to purchase a firearm. Ideally I would like guns to be banned, but that isn't possible. Unfortunately, I don't see the situation here getting better, only worse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom_Wren Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 You may conceal carry a firearm in a church in sc with the permission of the pastor if I remember rightly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 19, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2015 Just on the idea that more guns means safer citizens, the FBI itself did some research into the state of firearm related crime and discovered, amongst some other interesting stats, that unarmed people are 3 times more successful at stopping someone with a firearm than armed individuals. And in most cases of an armed individual resolving the situation, they in most cases were armed security officers - i.e. trained people. The 'the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun' narrative is nonsense, perpetuated by those with an interest in having it be so, be that politically or just because they damn well love their guns. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PongRiddims Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it. Fewer cars equal fewer car crashes. Fewer knives mean fewer stabbings. Is it really that simple? Yes. In that case, let's delegalise all kitchen ware. I'm sure that would prevent at least 90% of domestic murders. But is this the way to go? Kitchen ware is benign, it's designed for kitchen stuff, that's what it does, it's possible to kill someone with a whisk, but you have to be pretty determined and you have to have a fair amount of energy and strength to do it. Cars are benign, they're designed to get you from A to B, it's possible to kill someone with one, but it would be seen as misuse. If the purpose of cars was for the killing of pedestrians, if that's what the car was for and its design was based around finding effective ways for you to do this, then I'd be in favour of banning it. It's not. Guns are for killing people. That's what they do. The idea that we should be allowing them outside of military situations is absurd. The US is in a difficult situation. It needs to stop the availability of guns to its general population and begin the process of removing guns from its streets - that's something that won't really make much of a difference for the next fifty or sixty years - it'll take a long time to make the US safer, but you have to start somewhere. Genuinely, I don't think you could ever do it. As much as I want it to happen, I think the volume and culture is far beyond what we car address these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Banning guns would be a good first step. Why do americans feel they need such weapons anyway? its tradition since our founding. They are as normal to Americans as a cup of tea is to Brits. An astounding majority of gunowners will never use one in a crime, but because there are so many people here and so many guns, the outcome will always be horrible tragedies like this one that make global headlines. Which is not to diminish the problem. It clearly is one, but it will never be solved. We just have to endure it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCDAN Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33199174 can you believe this? Unreal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 (edited) I will repeat my point; it's not the guns that kill, it's the people A country that has just over half the proportion of the level of gun ownership of the US has about one seventh of the murder rate by firearm? How is that a recommendation for increasing gun ownership? Edited June 20, 2015 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reivax_Villa Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I find that its absolutely dreadful that guns is being mentioned as the main issue of this attack in this topic. I see pointless statistics of guns, but no mention of race? the inequality of race in America society? This was a terrorist attack on a black community in America something has been ongoing in country for over a hundred years. America has a huge problem with race and society and the media do not want to accept it, instead they want to brush it under the carpet as a race hate attack. Why is this not being labelled as a terrorist attack? If this crime was committed by someone of islamic faith this would be described as a terrorist attack. America invade other nations to defend their own country, but in actuality America are their own enemies. Shame on people that think that racism is not the main issue internally and externally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 What are you going on about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 20, 2015 Share Posted June 20, 2015 I find that its absolutely dreadful that guns is being mentioned as the main issue of this attack in this topic. I see pointless statistics of guns, but no mention of race? the inequality of race in America society? This was a terrorist attack on a black community in America something has been ongoing in country for over a hundred years. America has a huge problem with race and society and the media do not want to accept it, instead they want to brush it under the carpet as a race hate attack. Why is this not being labelled as a terrorist attack? If this crime was committed by someone of islamic faith this would be described as a terrorist attack. America invade other nations to defend their own country, but in actuality America are their own enemies. Shame on people that think that racism is not the main issue internally and externally. Debating guns =/= marginalising the race debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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