Eames Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 EDIT. What Lapal said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Other countries have easy access to guns but the death by gun statistics are incredibly low compared to the states, Canada being the main example. It's about attitudes, mentality and social culture which makes using guns such a throw-away, easy thing to do in the states. I've been to a couple of places in the US (Vegas, Chicago & NYC (Also Toronto)) and I never felt unsafe, I never saw a gun outside of a shooting range I went to in Vegas and I never even thought about guns - unless they were a visible side-arm of a police officer. I think the only thing you could try and do is to say that it is illegal to hold firearms on personal property, you must be enforced to keep guns in some sort of self storage locker. That way, when the red mist comes down, you can only beat someone to death rather than shooting them. Seems fair to me. I think the problem with America is that the second amendment not only legitimises the use of firearms but embeds the notion of the individual using a firearm to protect themselves against tyrannies big and small into the American psyche. I think once someone has visualised a situation where they use a gun as a legitimate political act, to protect their property, family or rights, they are a big step closer to actually doing so. Teaching stuff like that to kids at school seems like asking for trouble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Do you think criminals don't have guns in the UK? They do indeed (although far far fewer than in the States). It's worth pointing out that your point has nothing to do with what I wrote. Most guns in America are not fired by career criminals, and guns remain far more likely to be used against family members in domestic disputes than they are to be used in self-defence against criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Do you think criminals don't have guns in the UK? Criminals yes, but not Joe Public. It's not just about having a gun or not, it's the whole attitude towards them in the states. It's not just relatively easy to get one, but it's not that difficult to get a concealed carry permit in many states too. So that's not just having one to 'defend your property', which I kind of understand, but people are just wandering around carrying the **** things. There was a recent story about a 2 or 3 year old shooting their mum dead in a supermarket, because she had left a loaded gun on top of her purse while dong the shopping. Kid grabbed it and shot her. What. The. Actual. ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I'm glad you pointed out the whole 'concealed carry' thing. In fact, South Carolina is already a concealed carry state, and has a 'Castle Doctrine' or 'stand your ground' law that says people won't be prosecuted if they shoot intruders to their home, business or car. It's hard to understand what changes people would like to see to make South Carolina a more favourable legal environment for armed self-defence. So, given the lack of legal obstacles, why did nobody shoot the gunman on Wednesday? It probably has something to do with the fact that they were at a sodding Bible study session at their local church. This is not an irrelevant point about gun laws - you can create as pro-gun a state as you like, doesn't mean people will want to carry them, will be able to use them or have them to hand in that million to one situation that they suddenly "need" one. The only way to prevent these sorts of things from happening is removing guns from the situation. It's simple, obvious, and seems like it will never ever happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Do you think criminals don't have guns in the UK? Criminals yes, but not Joe Public. It's not just about having a gun or not, it's the whole attitude towards them in the states. It's not just relatively easy to get one, but it's not that difficult to get a concealed carry permit in many states too. So that's not just having one to 'defend your property', which I kind of understand, but people are just wandering around carrying the **** things. There was a recent story about a 2 or 3 year old shooting their mum dead in a supermarket, because she had left a loaded gun on top of her purse while dong the shopping. Kid grabbed it and shot her. What. The. Actual. ****. Thats another horrible story. But, unfortunately, it's because of a total lack of a responsibility from the mother, Millions of people carry guns around everyday, and these things do not happen everyday. But look at this video (there are loads of the on you tube) This for me is the best evidence why guns (for mentaly healthy and responsible adults!) should be legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Do you think criminals don't have guns in the UK? Criminals yes, but not Joe Public. It's not just about having a gun or not, it's the whole attitude towards them in the states. It's not just relatively easy to get one, but it's not that difficult to get a concealed carry permit in many states too. So that's not just having one to 'defend your property', which I kind of understand, but people are just wandering around carrying the **** things. There was a recent story about a 2 or 3 year old shooting their mum dead in a supermarket, because she had left a loaded gun on top of her purse while dong the shopping. Kid grabbed it and shot her. What. The. Actual. ****. Thats another horrible story. But, unfortunately, it's because of a total lack of a responsibility from the mother, Millions of people carry guns around everyday, and these things do not happen everyday. But look at this video (there are loads of the on you tube) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-OIlbVggR0 This for me is the best evidence why guns (for mentaly healthy and responsible adults!) should be legal What if the gunmen had opened fire and he had gotten everyone killed? Or anyone killed at all, even a gunman? Do people really see life in such ways? Problem with guns = get more guns? Boggles my mind. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Who judges what qualifies for mentally healthy and responsible though? The mum in question was a nuclear scientist, so whilst that doesn't make her responsible, I'd say she must have been reasonably intelligent - certainly not an uneducated redneck or anything like that. Maybe if more people had had guns on them in Walmart at the time, someone could have shot the toddler before he had chance to shoot his mum? I don't know, as other have said - the situation is probably too far gone now, but If they are not going to stop people having them, there should be tighter controls and they should have to be kept at home (unless travelling to/from a range or something). Allowing concealed carrying (or any kind of carrying) is a recipe for disaster imo. The example set by the police over there doesn't help. It makes me wonder if they use 'Police Academy' as an instructional training video, except there are no LOL's, they just run around shooting unarmed black people. I love the states, can't wait to go back in a few weeks, but some of the shit that goes on is just bat shit crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) Who judges what qualifies for mentally healthy and responsible though? The mum in question was a nuclear scientist, so whilst that doesn't make her responsible, I'd say she must have been reasonably intelligent - certainly not an uneducated redneck or anything like that. Maybe if more people had had guns on them in Walmart at the time, someone could have shot the toddler before he had chance to shoot his mum? I don't know, as other have said - the situation is probably too far gone now, but If they are not going to stop people having them, there should be tighter controls and they should have to be kept at home (unless travelling to/from a range or something). Allowing concealed carrying (or any kind of carrying) is a recipe for disaster imo. The example set by the police over there doesn't help. It makes me wonder if they use 'Police Academy' as an instructional training video, except there are no LOL's, they just run around shooting unarmed black people. I love the states, can't wait to go back in a few weeks, but some of the shit that goes on is just bat shit crazy. Just because you are a nuclear scientist it doesnt mean you are not an idiot. In fact, i'd argue that the world produces far too many idiots with degrees these days...And I'm sorry, but having a loaded gun with a child having an access to it means you are not the brightest of the lot, at least in my books. My argument is this. Guns do not kill. It's the people that kill. Let's assume that you had a gun in you possession. Would you kill anyone? Would you be stupid enough to leave it in an unsafe place for children? If the answer is no, then why do you assume others, like me or the guy next door would? There are bad people in this world. But imagine you live in States, let's say on a farm in texas. You have 20 acres of land (which many americans do, unlike us people on a TINY yet massivly populated island!) and the nearest town is 15 miles away. 2 people attack your house with your baby and you wife inside of it. You have two options; 1. Call the police and wait while the invaders are in your house and hope for the best 2. Defend your family I know what i'd choose, and I'm sure you would be hoping for a gun in that situation Edited June 19, 2015 by Mic09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it. Fewer cars equal fewer car crashes. Fewer knives mean fewer stabbings. Is it really that simple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 (edited) I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it.Fewer cars equal fewer car crashes. Fewer knives mean fewer stabbings. Is it really that simple? Yes. I would rather be stabbed or in a car crash than shot with a automatic rifle. Edited June 19, 2015 by Oaks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it. Fewer cars equal fewer car crashes. Fewer knives mean fewer stabbings. Is it really that simple? Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it. Fewer cars equal fewer car crashes. Fewer knives mean fewer stabbings. Is it really that simple? Yes. In that case, let's delegalise all kitchen ware. I'm sure that would prevent at least 90% of domestic murders. But is this the way to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Ridiculous straw man argument. Impossible to debate that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I will repeat my point; it's not the guns that kill, it's the people Ridiculous straw man argument. Impossible to debate that. Exactly! You cannot argue a point like that! Other countries such as Switzerland do not have that problem, which suggests that maybe it's not the number of guns that is to be blamed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would think guns should be legal. If people don't understand that fewer gun equal fewer shootings then they are a bit simple. There's always going to be crime, and a couple of cases when they have helped defend a business dose not equate to the loss of 1000s of innocent lives. This guy is pond life. This type of terrorism won't work, and it is as much terrorism than these Muslim bombers even if Fox News don't want to admit it. Fewer cars equal fewer car crashes. Fewer knives mean fewer stabbings. Is it really that simple? Yes. In that case, let's delegalise all kitchen ware. I'm sure that would prevent at least 90% of domestic murders. But is this the way to go? That's almost as bad as Donald Trumps arguments that if the teachers carried guns in the school that had shootings then less kids would have been murdered. Guns are designed to kill nothing more. And if you give everyone guns people will get shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I will repeat my point; it's not the guns that kill, it's the people Ridiculous straw man argument. Impossible to debate that. Exactly! You cannot argue a point like that! Other countries such as Switzerland do not have that problem, which suggests that maybe it's not the number of guns that is to be blamed... So until Americans can behave, then maybe they should have their toys taken from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 Ok guys, I can't be bothered to argue any more If guns were legal & if I had a gun I would not kill anybody. I'm sure this goes for you guys too. If I were attacked by anybody, the gun would be the only way to defend myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 I actually meant I can't be arsed to argue with a point like that because it's clear where your intentions in this debate lie. Once you start to argue that taking guns out of the hands of ordinary citizens, often untrained and often idiots is akin to banning steak knives you've already lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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