The ISIS threat to Europe

[darrenm]

This cartoon sums up so much. Please, please can the #ParisAttacks not slam the door in the faces of the desperate.

Edited November 15, 2015 by darrenm

[snowychap]

35 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said:

I'm sure when you were at school a small majority of the kids in your class caused trouble and the whole class was punished, principly unfair but peer pressure means it's less likely to happen again.

Yes, I'm sure we all experienced collective punishment at school.

It was stupid then and it's stupid now.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, Wainy316 said:

 

 

That is the one area where I will single out Islam. I can envision a future where Christianity and Judaism are finally grown out of. Islam on the other hand seems to take far more of a hold. People are wising up across the world and thinking free of the shackles of organised religion however Islam seems to be spreading at a similar rate.

 

*disclaimer: I have no figures to support this, just personal observations.

I think that overall, christianity is still on the rise. Yes, it's in decline in 'the west', but there is significant growth in the east and in the south. I think maybe sometimes, we sit in our homes in 'the west' and presume the way we live and the way we think is the norm. For instance, the number of christians in South Korea has (roughly) doubled in 10 years. There are now 12,000,000 where in 2005 there were estimated to be about 7,000,000. Similar stories in any number of other countries. There are church buildings across Korea, The Phillipines, India that each have larger capacities than Wembley.

You could argue that if we (the world) invested more in educating people and bringing them up to a level of income and consumerism whereby they had something to lose by clinging to religion or condoning upheaval then the grip and 'threat' of religion would begin to wane. Only problem being of course, if we get a few billion extra people doing their worshipping in Ikea and on Amazon, the planet is **** and we all die screaming.

It's quite a tricky one.

[jackbauer24]

29 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Yes, I'm sure we all experienced collective punishment at school.

It was stupid then and it's stupid now.

This is another problem with trying to discuss emotive issues, people take one line from a general point and get offended by it or make it more sweeping than it is generally meant. Context is an important issue but so is recognising that any disussion relies on making similarities to experiences the reader may be more familiar with, quite clearly in this case where it is stated it's principly unfair but it is about self-governing and clearly making sure everyone knows you're nothing to do with what is being represented under your name. I didn't once state all Islamic countries should be punished, I said peer pressure from those you respect modifies your behaviour and a load of rich white politicians in Britain is not going to curtail radicalism as effectively as a more robust response from Islamic scholars. Self-policing.

And I don't care what you or anyone else in this thread says both against or in support of my short little paragraph that states a general belief I have, I have no intention of commenting in this thread again. I'm self-governing to recognise there will always be people who like to get all het up about stuff that really isn't required and it's not worth arguing semantics over such issues.

Edited November 15, 2015 by jackbauer24

[tonyh29]

French security expert said they knew something was coming as they could hear background chatter in the past weeks ... But they were taken by surprise at how big the attack was 

 

be curious to know what this background chatter was and how many doors are going to get kicked down by the police in the coming weeks 

[snowychap]

13 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said:

This is another problem with trying to discuss emotive issues, people take one line from a general point and get offended by it...

I took one line because it represented, I thought, the basis for the rest of what you were saying. I wasn't offended by it but I disagreed with what you said and where your argument began and ended.

The 'self-policing' line can and does only go so far. Gathering whole groups of people together who may have nothing more in common than the wider religion they follow or the football team they support and expecting those groups to 'self-police' or face consequences will inevitably lead to resentment (at first then probably more later) towards those who pursue that end from those who are not responsible for the actions that are being 'rooted out'. In a situation where it's detention for all or a fine for the club then it doesn't really matter (though it can and should give one an appreciation of how stupid it is), where one is attempting to encourage people to feel part of the society to which they belong and not push them away and disenfranchise them then it's very counter-productive and dangerous.

Quote

And I don't care what you or anyone else in this thread says both against or in support of my short little paragraph that states a general belief I have, I have no intention of commenting in this thread again. I'm self-governing to recognise there will always be people who like to get all het up about stuff that really isn't required and it's not worth arguing semantics over such issues.

If I were to chuck a pound on who was getting het up here then I wouldn't be putting it on me.

Edited November 15, 2015 by snowychap

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

French security expert said they knew something was coming as they could hear background chatter in the past weeks ... But they were taken by surprise at how big the attack was 

 

be curious to know what this background chatter was and how many doors are going to get kicked down by the police in the coming weeks 

That would tie up with what a witness the Beeb interviewed yesterday said, that they had seen unusually large police presences in the locality immediately before the attack began, which they felt was strange and guessed something was up.

[Wainy316]

1 hour ago, Wainy316 said:  

 

That is the one area where I will single out Islam. I can envision a future where Christianity and Judaism are finally grown out of. Islam on the other hand seems to take far more of a hold. People are wising up across the world and thinking free of the shackles of organised religion however Islam seems to be spreading at a similar rate.

 

*disclaimer: I have no figures to support this, just personal observations.

I think that overall, christianity is still on the rise. Yes, it's in decline in 'the west', but there is significant growth in the east and in the south. I think maybe sometimes, we sit in our homes in 'the west' and presume the way we live and the way we think is the norm. For instance, the number of christians in South Korea has (roughly) doubled in 10 years. There are now 12,000,000 where in 2005 there were estimated to be about 7,000,000. Similar stories in any number of other countries. There are church buildings across Korea, The Phillipines, India that each have larger capacities than Wembley.

You could argue that if we (the world) invested more in educating people and bringing them up to a level of income and consumerism whereby they had something to lose by clinging to religion or condoning upheaval then the grip and 'threat' of religion would begin to wane. Only problem being of course, if we get a few billion extra people doing their worshipping in Ikea and on Amazon, the planet is **** and we all die screaming.

It's quite a tricky one.

I fully take your point on the western bubble thing actually. Funny you should mention Korea because I have first hand experience having lived there. There's no way it's 12,000,000 (a quarter of the population) but Christianity is growing there in a nation previously devoid of that kind of thing. I do wonder how this happens in this day and age, especially in a place like South Korea, a place as it happens where consumerism and capitalism is every bit as bad as it is here.

[HanoiVillan]

10 hours ago, Awol said:

 

In answer to the question, 'why is Christianity becoming so popular in Korea', there are a number of answers. There are historical reasons - Korea received a lot of missionaries, who opened schools (including admitting girls) and translated the Bible into Hangul at a time when society high society wrote using Chinese pictograms (shades of Gutenberg. . .). Such was the quantity of missionaries that at one time Pyongyang was called 'The Jerusalem of The East'. Christians gained further brownie points by refusing to worship the Japanese emperor, and being active in the resistance movement. 

However, even after the Second World War, less than 2% of the population were Christian, compared to more than a quarter now (Wainy isn't right above, it's actually over 12 million between Catholicism and Protestantism). It's not entirely clear what happened to make Christianity suddenly so popular in the seventies and eighties, but it may be an artefact of urbanisation (being seen as a 'modern' religion) and probably even more likely, a result of network effects in a society where who you know is very important. It might also be related to the huge popularity of American culture in the country. 

One feature of South Korea you get to experience when living there is the huge number of red neon crosses that illuminate the night sky in the north and west of the country:

 

Edited November 15, 2015 by HanoiVillan

[Wainy316]

10 hours ago, Awol said:  

In answer to the question, 'why is Christianity becoming so popular in Korea', there are a number of answers. There are historical reasons - Korea received a lot of missionaries, who opened schools (including admitting girls) and translated the Bible into Hangul at a time when society high society wrote using Chinese pictograms (shades of Gutenberg. . .). Such was the quantity of missionaries that at one time Pyongyang was called 'The Jerusalem of The East'. Christians gained further brownie points by refusing to worship the Japanese emperor, and being active in the resistance movement. 

However, even after the Second World War, less than 2% of the population were Christian, compared to more than a quarter now (Wainy isn't right above, it's actually over 12 million between Catholicism and Protestantism). It's not entirely clear what happened to make Christianity suddenly so popular in the seventies and eighties, but it may be an artefact of urbanisation (being seen as a 'modern' religion) and probably even more likely, a result of network effects in a society where who you know is very important. It might also be related to the huge popularity of American culture in the country. 

One feature of South Korea you get to experience when living there is the huge number of red neon crosses that illuminate the night sky in the north and west of the country:

 

Cheers for the info but I really find it hard to comprehend that there is 12,000,000 Christians there. Is that practicing or would the figure also be similarly high in Britain? Me for instance a staunch atheist that happens to be baptised.

Oh yes the red crosses, hard to deny that they are very abundant. Never met anyone that goes to them though! The church can be found on floor number 7 next to the PC bang.

[HanoiVillan]

I'm aware we're going off-topic, so this is my last post on this question. 

The info on numbers is from the 'religion in South Korea' wiki article. It's based on census data (so, however people consider themselves) from a decade ago (I assume there's a new census this year), but I would expect the numbers to be bigger rather than smaller anyway, so it undercounts Christians actually. However, 'atheism or other religion' (ie. atheism) is even more common, at around half the population. 

Anyway, back to Paris . . . 

[Arj Guy]

I think that anyone who genuinely believes that attacks like these have nothing to do with islam and are just down to a few bad eggs is incredibly naive. If that were the case, then why aren't there a few bad Hindu eggs killing large amounts of innocent people on a regular basis going back decades and decades? Or Christian or Sikh ect.... Islam is a violent and backward religion whose followers  impose it's beliefs on others like no other religion. 

[limpid]

7 minutes ago, Arj Guy said:

I think that anyone who genuinely believes that attacks like these have nothing to do with islam and are just down to a few bad eggs is incredibly naive.

This is completely true in the same way that all Christians are kiddy fiddlers.

[choffer]

24 minutes ago, Arj Guy said:

I think that anyone who genuinely believes that attacks like these have nothing to do with islam and are just down to a few bad eggs is incredibly naive. 

I think most people would agree that the Westboro Baptist church does not represent the views of the millions of Christians in the world. 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

The inevitable and now cliche fallout of these attacks will soon be underway: right-wing ascendancy, needless immigration controls, giving up of personal freedoms, pointless military action, and demonisation of all Muslims.

The main problem is the funding. Stop the money and that will go a lot further than any bullshit answer provided by our useless political and military leadership.

Of course that means dealing with Saudi Arabia, a major trading partner. Why challenge them when we can sell them weapons & pin the blame on immigrants?

[Wainy316]

I think that anyone who genuinely believes that attacks like these have nothing to do with islam and are just down to a few bad eggs is incredibly naive. If that were the case, then why aren't there a few bad Hindu eggs killing large amounts of innocent people on a regular basis going back decades and decades? Or Christian or Sikh ect.... Islam is a violent and backward religion whose followers  impose it's beliefs on others like no other religion. 

Pretty sure some very bad shit has been done in the name of Hinduism in India.

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, Arj Guy said:

I think that anyone who genuinely believes that attacks like these have nothing to do with islam and are just down to a few bad eggs is incredibly naive. If that were the case, then why aren't there a few bad Hindu eggs killing large amounts of innocent people on a regular basis going back decades and decades? Or Christian or Sikh ect.... Islam is a violent and backward religion whose followers  impose it's beliefs on others like no other religion. 

I've had a think and nope I can't recall a single Muslim I've met who imposed his beliefs on me .... Heck I've been drunk in more Muslim countries than I can even remember

But  ok if you really push me when I went to visit some mosques in Iran I had to take my shoes off but for balance when I went to Amritsar I had to cover my head to appease those evil Sikhs who imposed their beliefs on me 

 

 

[TrentVilla]

35 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

The inevitable and now cliche fallout of these attacks will soon be underway: right-wing ascendancy, needless immigration controls, giving up of personal freedoms, pointless military action, and demonisation of all Muslims.

The main problem is the funding. Stop the money and that will go a lot further than any bullshit answer provided by our useless political and military leadership.

Of course that means dealing with Saudi Arabia, a major trading partner. Why challenge them when we can sell them weapons & pin the blame on immigrants?

You might want to look at how ISIS is largely self funding.

[TrentVilla]

4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I've had a think and nope I can't recall a single Muslim I've met who imposed his beliefs on me .... Heck I've been drunk in more Muslim countries than I can even remember

But  ok if you really push me when I went to visit some mosques in Iran I had to take my shoes off but for balance when I went to Amritsar I had to cover my head to appease those evil Sikhs who imposed their beliefs on me 

 

 

I once had to wish someone happy Christmas despite being an atheist after an evil genius wished me one. True story.

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, Arj Guy said:

...why aren't there a few bad Hindu eggs killing large amounts of innocent people on a regular basis going back decades and decades? Or Christian or Sikh ect...

I think there are/have always been a fair few Hindu, Christian, Sikh, Buddhist, &c. bad eggs.