The ISIS threat to Europe

[Dr_Pangloss]

30 minutes ago, The_Rev said:

"Sorry kids, Daddy can't come with us to our new life in Europe. Just in case he scares the locals."

I think if it helps to prevent incidents like this then it's more than worth it. 

[snowychap]

10 minutes ago, gharperr said:

i read on reddit that police can detain you if you dont have a valid i.d on you or something in france. So i imagine you do whatever you can to make sure something doesnt stop you from going to paradiise. (if car got pulled over or something)

That's a fair point. I think you've got up to four hours to provide documents which might cause timing issues.

[AVFC_Hitz]

All those virgins and you forget your passport.

[tinker]

Syria is a war zone with no rules, 1000's of women and children killed and tortured, its hell on earth. Our answer is to send drones controlled from 9-5 office. The worlds a  small place, we can't turn our back on any massacres no matter where they are.

Just reading some of the comments made today, replace the word Muslim with Jew and were back in the 30's. 

[StefanAVFC]

59 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I think if it helps to prevent incidents like this then it's more than worth it. 

Splitting up tens of thousands of families because tens of people may commit terrorist acts is ridiculous logic.

It's also absurdly cruel to thousands and thousands of children who will grow up with father's because of their skin colour.

Doesn't sit right with me in the slightest. Imagine being a child travelling all that way to finally reach safety and your father is told to bugger off because he's of 'fighting age'.

Edited November 14, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[The_Rev]

No, sending people back into the arms of your enemy is a brilliant idea. 

[ROTTERDAM1982]

The fact is we are not obliged to have anyone, we do it because of our humanity.But on the same point, you can't jerpodize your own existance by pursuing sanctimonious principles.

[omariqy]

How about we get to the root cause of the problem? Stop interfering in the middle east, stop befriending despots and dictators. Stop our support for Saudi. Stop our love for oil, money and power. Eradicating ISIS won't solve the problem. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

38 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Splitting up tens of thousands of families because tens of people may commit terrorist acts is ridiculous logic.

It's also absurdly cruel to thousands and thousands of children who will grow up with father's because of their skin colour.

Doesn't sit right with me in the slightest. Imagine being a child travelling all that way to finally reach safety and your father is told to bugger off because he's of 'fighting age'.

That's fine, but do you actually have any solutions? It's very difficult to think what actually can be done, other than look after our own interests. 

Of course, not meddling in the middle east is a great idea and one I've always supported, but that's not going to solve anything in the short to medium term given the footprint countries like ours have left there for the last few decades.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Dr_Pangloss

[sharkyvilla]

Could really do with God or Allah coming out of the sky and telling everyone to calm the **** down.  The only other solution I can think of is to pour money into the refugee camps around Syria to create new towns and cities where kids can get a proper education and protect them with our troops.  Over 100 years I'd hope religion could be educated out of people altogether, like it nearly has over here.  You'd have to put up with the murder in the meantime though.

[Awol]

There's lots that could be done to unscrew the current mess in the Middle East but it would take political will and cooperation on a scale unseen since WW2. 

The irony is that not doing so could sow (and water) the seeds for WW3, or at least the biggest conflagration since 1945.

The only big winner out of all this will be China, particularly if we face a perfect economic storm next year that triggers another great financial crisis.  Given the global overhang of debt, the continuing fiasco of the Euro and the ruinous effect low oil prices is going to have on social stability in the Middle East I'd guess we ain't seen nothing yet.

The world urgently needs (by hook or by crook) to force Israel back behind it's 1967 borders with a subsequent NATO security guarantee.  

We need as a matter of urgency to destroy ISIS so they can't take advantage of the even greater instability around the corner and become completely unmanageable. 

Europe needs to stabilize Libya and stem migration flows out of Africa, or there will be so many bodies in the Med' they'll be able to walk to Italy without getting their feet wet. 

Southern Europe is an economic car crash waiting to catch fire. The US is weaker than it looks and the Dollar's status as global reserve currency may come under pressure if the Gulf States remove the peg - again oil prices.

I think we'll look back on current problems with nostalgia in the not too distant future.

PS. The UK will be fine because 1) we're an island, and 2) we're all ace.

PPS. sorry, this may really be in the wrong thread..

[momo]

[AVFC_Hitz]

How bout we just pull out of the middle east all together.

Those "drawn in the sand" borders WE made. Let's just **** off.

Let's concentrate in making another Lidl on Five ways.

[AVFC_Hitz]

How bout we just pull out of the middle east all together.

Those "drawn in the sand" borders WE made. Let's just **** off.

Let's concentrate in making another Lidl on Five ways.

Then we vigorously touch ourselves.

[tinker]

"In times when a few misrepresent the human race, it is of utmost importance to remember that good always triumphs over evil #PorteOuvert"

[tomaspg]

2 hours ago, ROTTERDAM1982 said:

The fact is we are not obliged to have anyone, we do it because of our humanity.But on the same point, you can't jerpodize your own existance by pursuing sanctimonious principles.

"No Contracting State shall expel or return ('refouler') a refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where his life or freedom would be threatened on account of his race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social or political opinion" (Article 33(1))

Taken from the 1951 refugee convention. so we are obliged to help.

i understand people are scared to when they see what can happen, but the other option is worse.

2 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

Could really do with God or Allah coming out of the sky and telling everyone to calm the **** down.  The only other solution I can think of is to pour money into the refugee camps around Syria to create new towns and cities where kids can get a proper education and protect them with our troops.  Over 100 years I'd hope religion could be educated out of people altogether, like it nearly has over here.  You'd have to put up with the murder in the meantime though.

 

This x100. trying to bomb a country into the 21st century isn't going to work. its just going to add more fuel to the flame. i cant really see any quick fixes. hopefully someone smarter will

Edited November 14, 2015 by tomaspg

[Wainy316]

Could really do with God or Allah coming out of the sky and telling everyone to calm the **** down.  The only other solution I can think of is to pour money into the refugee camps around Syria to create new towns and cities where kids can get a proper education and protect them with our troops.  Over 100 years I'd hope religion could be educated out of people altogether, like it nearly has over here.  You'd have to put up with the murder in the meantime though.

That is the one area where I will single out Islam. I can envision a future where Christianity and Judaism are finally grown out of. Islam on the other hand seems to take far more of a hold. People are wising up across the world and thinking free of the shackles of organised religion however Islam seems to be spreading at a similar rate.

*disclaimer: I have no figures to support this, just personal observations.

[choffer]

8 hours ago, Awol said:

I'll give this one more go and if it's still not clear to you then let's call it quits.

Yes of course Wahhabism is the foundation of the Saudi State in partnership with the Al Saud dynasty. 

Wahhabism is the theological doctrine that underpins the nastier Jihadi movements - see video clip linked earlier for evidence.

Therefore Saudi Arabia is really indivisible from Al Qaeda, Islamic State et al,  except for the leadership issue - the Al Saud believe they should be in charge and Al Baghdadi reckons he's the gaffer in waiting, before him Bin Laden quite fancied the job. 

That's the basic conflict between the Saud/Wahhabi establishment and IS/AQ, the actual religious belief systems are the same - more golden delicious vs Granny Smiths than comparing apples and oranges.

Saudi Arabia is the ideological inspiration for modern Jihadi terrorism and that is the cancer that the world needs to deal with.

That is not generalising about Muslims or Arabs, only a Saudi would be conceited enough to believe that a criticism of their own deeply malevolent and medieval world view represented a criticism of all Muslims or Arabs.

Wahhabism is good old fascism dressed up in religious garb - and without the snappy uniforms. It needs to be treated by the world in exactly the same manner and utterly destroyed. 

The best definition I've seen of the differences and the history was Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis. I'm sure it's still available on iplayer.

[jackbauer24]

I don't really want to get involved in this discussion, I am neither educated or worldly enough to have all the answers to complex issues I have neither the experience or beliefs to base my comments on.

However I do think, as unfair as it may seem, that the only way there is a real chance of preventing radicalism is if the religions from which it originates far more proactively step away from themselves being in any way represented by the actions of individuals who act in 'their name' or speak for 'their god'. Not a throw away statement about disagreeing, but full on rooting out, reporting, shaming and proactively separating themselves from these people. At the moment it often feels like there is an underlying sympathy for their beliefs, for their strong feelings with just a simple public appeasement of "but I wouldn't have gone that far".

It's the way of the world. If a few football fans cause trouble, a club's name is pulled through the mud and the club is fined or punished. Obviously that's not fair on the 95% of decent fans but is a understandable deterrent to make clubs stamp out any chances it happens again. I'm sure when you were at school a small majority of the kids in your class caused trouble and the whole class was punished, principly unfair but peer pressure means it's less likely to happen again. As a general rule, people and groups need to effectively police themselves and any outside groups that try to influence that are often fought against.

Many religions have had their spells of both persecution, and being the persecuted, but as a generalisation they need to remove that element from within. At the moment I don't think the Islamic community is doing enough PR, enough action or enough to remove themselves from the horrors that are commited under their name.

[gharperr]

3 minutes ago, jackbauer24 said:

but full on rooting out, reporting, shaming and proactively separating themselves from these people. At the moment it often feels like there is an underlying sympathy for their beliefs, for their strong feelings with just a simple public appeasement of "but I wouldn't have gone that far".

I

I imagine this is a quick way to get your family killed in a lot of places in middle east.