chrisp65 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 1 hour ago, sharkyvilla said: Regarding the semantics of the word 'swarm', before the refugee crisis I've always come across the word for meaning large groups of people moving in a particular direction e.g. whenever we have a sunny bank holiday and thousands of people are photographed on the beach in a newspaper, they are often said to have swarmed to the beach. Obviously referring or comparing people to rats is horrid, but I don't think saying people are swarming (or flocking) is that unreasonable and shouldn't immediately bring comparisons to insects to mind. I take your point. But we have to consider context. Swarms descending on the beach on a sunny bank holiday is just a description. A bloke that cheats on a girlfriend is a rat. Describing refugees or immigrants or whatever as swarms or rats is deliberately provocative. I think it's ok to describe somebody as black if giving a description of, say, a black actor in a film. To front up to someone on the football pitch that is patently black, and call them a black whatever, is probably racist. Context. It's tricky and there can be misunderstandings and well meaning blunders. Use of terms like rats and swarms in the context of this current topic is unhelpful at best, deliberately offensive racism at worst. But probably somewhere in between. The Daily Mail knew what it was doing recently with it's cartoon of rats. Not quite blatantly racist enough to get prosecuted. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: The Daily Mail knew what it was doing recently with it's cartoon of rats. Not quite blatantly racist enough to get prosecuted. i just saw it as we are welcoming everyone including rats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) The video posted above also used the term swarming to describe the advent of refugees funnily enough. Like, you can just say migrating in large numbers. Swarming has a more ominous implication, even if it's not directly comparing them to insects. Especially given the context of the video (and some of the other allegorical imagery it employs), it's clear what the intention of using the term was. Edited March 22, 2016 by Keyblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 26 minutes ago, Keyblade said: The video posted above also used the term swarming to describe the advent of refugees funnily enough. Like, you can just say migrating in large numbers. Swarming has a more ominous implication, even if it's not directly comparing them to insects. Especially given the context of the video (and some of the other allegorical imagery it employs), it's clear what the intention of using the term was. I agree, although that video brings up some interesting talking points, it's got an undercurrent of something more sinister behind it. From what I remember the original big outrage came about when David Cameron said they were coming to Europe in swarms and I genuinely don't think he meant anything other than the longer-held inoffensive meaning of the word, but then I know people have a much worse opinion of him than I do, with him being a Tory, albeit a pro-European one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 7 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: I agree, although that video brings up some interesting talking points, it's got an undercurrent of something more sinister behind it. From what I remember the original big outrage came about when David Cameron said they were coming to Europe in swarms and I genuinely don't think he meant anything other than the longer-held inoffensive meaning of the word, but then I know people have a much worse opinion of him than I do, with him being a Tory, albeit a pro-European one. Swarm has some unfortunate connotations but what other word is there to describe a huge mass of people trying to force their way into a country (Macedonia, say) by sheer weight of numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 1 minute ago, MakemineVanilla said: Swarm has some unfortunate connotations but what other word is there to describe a huge mass of people trying to force their way into a country (Macedonia, say) by sheer weight of numbers? Exactly. Just googling the word comes up with that exact definition, both as a noun and verb including people (well the example they use is journalists ) as well as insects . Synonyms are words like flock, stream, flood, which have all had similar negative press for people when they have used them in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post limpid Posted March 22, 2016 Administrator Popular Post Share Posted March 22, 2016 18 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: Exactly. Just googling the word comes up with that exact definition, both as a noun and verb including people (well the example they use is journalists ) as well as insects . Synonyms are words like flock, stream, flood, which have all had similar negative press for people when they have used them in this context. But we don't talk about streams. Spoiler 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 22, 2016 Share Posted March 22, 2016 If there was a rally in London with thousands of disabled or nurses or pensioners protesting about something, would we need a single word like swarm to describe them? Or would we possibly use the word 'thousands'? Who knows, it could even be more descriptive, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands. I have no idea how many are in a swarm. A hundred and twenty three maybe? But I have just looked at six different online dictionaries, Collins, Oxford, Cambridge etc.. and they all gave insects or flying insects as the first definition. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: If there was a rally in London with thousands of disabled or nurses or pensioners protesting about something, would we need a single word like swarm to describe them? Or would we possibly use the word 'thousands'? Who knows, it could even be more descriptive, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands. Do I win ? Protesters dressed as bees swarmed around Parliament yesterday in support of a ban on certain pesticides. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Do I win ? No, of course you don't. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Well we know who won the mr sour puss grumpy face contest 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 29 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Well we know who won the mr sour puss grumpy face contest Shrug. We had proper prizes & competitions at our school. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 we didn't have prizes at my school, or competitions, we were a proper 70's comp and we didn't want to upset the lazy, losers and lesbians No Tony, of course you don't win, the bees made it ok to say swarm, they actually made it slightly funny, context again. Also, that link was to the Daily Mirror. That's like, you know, a bit shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LxYoungAVFC Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) Swarm behaviour, or swarming, is a collective behaviour exhibited by entities, particularly animals, of similar size which aggregate together, perhaps milling about the same spot or perhaps moving en masse or migrating in some direction. It is highly interdisciplinary topic.[1] As a term, swarming is applied particularly to insects, but can also be applied to any other entity or animal that exhibits swarm behaviour. People crying about the definition are desperatly looking to be offended or point fingers at others (à la PC Principal). Numerous groups have been labled swarms in the past. Edit: I understand it is a question of whether the term "swarm" is used to accuratly describe the behaviour of a group or to maliciously label it as an uncontrollable mass. I don't feel it is unreasonable to silently question the intent behind the use, but pointing out the possible malicious intent behind every use of the term diverts attention away from the main topic/discussion. Edited March 23, 2016 by LxYoungAVFC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddywhack Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 1 hour ago, LxYoungAVFC said: People crying... Nope 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 10 hours ago, chrisp65 said: If there was a rally in London with thousands of disabled or nurses or pensioners protesting about something, would we need a single word like swarm to describe them? Or would we possibly use the word 'thousands'? Who knows, it could even be more descriptive, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands. I have no idea how many are in a swarm. A hundred and twenty three maybe? But I have just looked at six different online dictionaries, Collins, Oxford, Cambridge etc.. and they all gave insects or flying insects as the first definition. I'd only use the word swarm for a large group of people moving in a particular direction, as per the definition. Though the example they give when you look of swarm on Google is for a swarm of protestors, it's only in respect to them storming a building, rather than merely as a group of people, which I doubt disabled people or pensioners would do. In the context of mass migration it is wholly appropriate to use the word swarm if you like, it's the other words being used alongside that give it context. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: No Tony, of course you don't win, the bees made it ok to say swarm, they actually made it slightly funny, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 ...Did.. Did Limpid just make..a joke?? The end is nigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 23, 2016 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2016 I went outside a bit earlier, to soak up some of the early spring sunshine, and 2 foreign-looking blokes were stood by a doorway. I overheard one say to the other "swarm today innit?" I think that's conclusive proof that, y'know, something's afoot. Should I rat on them? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOF Posted March 23, 2016 Moderator Share Posted March 23, 2016 17 hours ago, lapal_fan said: Thanks for clarifying. You see, I don't see it that skeptically. Maybe I'm a bit young and naive, and obviously the more years I spend on this little blue marble flying through space, the more skeptical I become. However, I don't think that governments are that smart. You're implying that the Western Gov's have been playing the long game, whereas I think all Governments play the "oh shit, an election in 18 months, let's do something quick!". I think the results of the actions of past Governments leading all the way up to NOW, have led to the very shitty situations that are occurring in the Middle East. What we have now is the fallout of those legitimate/phony wars. I believe. And I believe that THAT is the problem. Short-termism. Short term gains often leave the long term results wanting. Here are some wikileaks emails from Hillary Clinton. Remember, my cynicism is not based on paranoia. This shit happens. "The released emails uncovered that the presidential front runner was instrumental in spreading chaos and extremism in Libya. They also revealed that she pushed for oil privatization in Mexico and forwarded emails claiming a Sunni-Shiite war would be good for Israel and the West." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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