The ISIS threat to Europe

[foreveryoung]

1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

"It" is an obviously problem and there will seemingly be more attacks in Europe and most likely in this country (London). The question is what to do about it? I've always advocated a non-interventionist stance on foreign policy but so much damage has been done by intervening that 'scaling back' isn't actually going to stop any attacks and anti-west sentiment over the short-medium term. 

That said, it's hardly desirable to allow a large group of fascists like IS run amok in the Middle East and preventing that does require Western intervention as that region is totally incapable of sorting it out for themselves. 

So you don't think they are getting into the EU doing the same. People need to understand, its not really the issue of refugees coming here to escape persecution, thats not the problem. The problem is who the f*** are we letting in.  A few manage to accidently lose there passports, an its no big secret (though this won't be reported as fact in the media) that terrorist acts have increased, since they have been free to walk into parts of the EU.

[blandy]

I liked @LxYoungAVFC long post, because he explained why he posted earlier what he did. And although it's only a relatively small sample, it's the sort of information that is needed to be heard (along with other examples whatever they might illustrate).

It also seems credible that people fleeing the horrors of wars are not the only people taking much the same route to Europe. There are signs of demographic imbalance in the make up of the incomers - by that I mean there do seem to be disproportionately high numbers of young unaccompanied men, which seems to indicate that simply fleeing war might not be the sole  reason for people coming - that seeking work, or money (if only to send back to their poor families) might also be a motive. The absolutely vast numbers of people turning up does present a problem. The very different nature of religions and cultures will also create problems.
I think that wanting to help people who genuinely need help is not incompatible with a desire to keep terrorists, radicals, economic migrants, people smugglers and other criminals away.
 

[Wainy316]

As this has turned into yet another immigration/refugee debate haven't all attacks on European soil been committed by radicalised native citizens so far?

[Paddywhack]

6 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

So you don't think they are getting into the EU doing the same. People need to understand, its not really the issue of refugees coming here to escape persecution, thats not the problem. The problem is who the f*** are we letting in.  A few manage to accidently lose there passports, an its no big secret (though this won't be reported as fact in the media) that terrorist acts have increased, since they have been free to walk into parts of the EU.

Yeah, newspapers don't really like printing about immigration or terrorism, it's kind of swept under the rug. 

 

 

 

[Keyblade]

9 minutes ago, blandy said:

I liked @LxYoungAVFC long post, because he explained why he posted earlier what he did. And although it's only a relatively small sample, it's the sort of information that is needed to be heard (along with other examples whatever they might illustrate).
 

Is it really? All it does is illustrate that some people are hardworking and some people aren't and yet the conclusion meant to be drawn from it is radically different no pun intended.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Keyblade

[lapal_fan]

9 minutes ago, BOF said:

Do people really think the major Western governments don't want this in any way?  Do you really think they don't benefit from the climate of fear this generates, and the resulting ease with which they can pass any amount of legislation curtailing liberties going forward?  Not to mention further profit from the need for weapons in the unsettled areas?  Areas which they themselves unsettled either directly by invading or indirectly be selling to those in power in order to massacre their own (Syria) or those they wished to see unseat those in power (Al Qaeda etc).  The West has caused this, nay engineered this.  They are now benefitting financially and legislatively from it.  It is the perfect storm for governments even if they will obviously shed crocodile tears and 'do what they can' once the horse has bolted.  Wake TFU and think of the bigger picture here peeps.

My enemy's enemy is my friend.  They're already at it again.  They're back selling directly to those responsible for 9/11.  You couldn't make it up, unless you were responsible for it, in which case you could, and have.

Not often I disagree big guy, but I do on this.

(Unless it's sarcasm, I think I can see hints of sarcasm).

[villakram]

10 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

As this has turned into yet another immigration/refugee debate haven't all attacks on European soil been committed by radicalised native citizens so far?

sshhh... new powers needed because Terrorism and think of the children, you heartless so and so!

[BOF]

No, not sarcasm at all @lapal_fan.  I just think there's a much much bigger separation between the will of Western people and the will of those in power over those people as to what each wants in the world.  Stability doesn't suit everyone.  Peace doesn't suit everyone.  I know it might appear that way and it should appear that way but we're a nasty species at heart and there will never be peace once ambition exists, because there'll always be someone who wants more and isn't happy with their lot.

And I tried (and failed) to hide that post before someone bothered responding to it, because I didn't want the long inevitable conversation that would follow   That and the fact I think I've made that point before.   Possibly in this thread (I know because Blandy responded the last time).

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Is it really? All it does is illustrate that some people are hardworking and some people aren't and yet the conclusion meant to be drawn from it is radically different no pun intended.

I take it as the first hand experience of someone who was in a role directly trying to help these people, reporting that there were quite big problems with the behaviour and attitude of some of those he tried to help and that as a consequence his own views had changed or been affected. Yes there will be other people who report differently, but I kind of came across this thread and there were people (I would have been tempted to do the same) piling in on him because his views, formed at least in part through experience trying to help refugees, didn't match what we think they should. I don't necessarily agree with him , but at least he's explained and I understand why he''s saying what he's saying.  That's a good way of discussing something, so I liked his post.

[lapal_fan]

Just now, BOF said:

No, not sarcasm at all @lapal_fan.  I just think there's a much much bigger separation between the will of Western people and the will of those in power over those people as to what each wants in the world.  Stability doesn't suit everyone.  Peace doesn't suit everyone.  I know it might appear that way and it should appear that way but we're a nasty species at heart and there will never be peace once ambition exists, because there'll always be someone who wants more and isn't happy with their lot.

Thanks for clarifying.

You see, I don't see it that skeptically.  Maybe I'm a bit young and naive, and obviously the more years I spend on this little blue marble flying through space, the more skeptical I become.

However, I don't think that governments are that smart.  You're implying that the Western Gov's have been playing the long game, whereas I think all Governments play the "oh shit, an election in 18 months, let's do something quick!".  I think the results of the actions of past Governments leading all the way up to NOW, have led to the very shitty situations that are occurring in the Middle East.  What we have now is the fallout of those legitimate/phony wars.  I believe.

And I believe that THAT is the problem.  Short-termism.  Short term gains often leave the long term results wanting. 

[BOF]

Never become as cynical as me

[Keyblade]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

I take it as the first hand experience of someone who was in a role directly trying to help these people, reporting that there were quite big problems with the behaviour and attitude of some of those he tried to help and that as a consequence his own views had changed or been affected. Yes there will be other people who report differently, but I kind of came across this thread and there were people (I would have been tempted to do the same) piling in on him because his views, formed at least in part through experience trying to help refugees, didn't match what we think they should. I don't necessarily agree with him , but at least he's explained and I understand why he''s saying what he's saying.  That's a good way of discussing something, so I liked his post.

People were piling on him because he likened them to swarms and stated they should be fighting in a war torn country instead of having the audacity to seek refuge elsewhere, not because he was simply stating his opinion. 

And this was based on what, an experience at a refugee shelter? If you gathered 40 white homeless people you'll most likely have some behavior and attitude problems as well. Should we start generalizing white people too based on the behavior of a few of their most downtrodden? Maybe we should ship them off too perhaps? I wonder what kind of parasite or pest I should compare them to without coming across as bigoted.

It's utterly ridiculous and borderline racist. As if to imply that it's some inherent cultural or religious flaw which makes them behave that way and not extreme circumstance coupled with personal character flaws. I mean it's nice to know the heroic origin story behind why he thinks we're about to be swarmed by locus...I mean brown peo...I mean refugees, and I appreciate that he took the time to retell it in detail but you'll have to forgive me for thinking it adds nothing to the discussion but ignorance.

[lapal_fan]

1 minute ago, Keyblade said:

People were piling on him because he likened them to swarms and stated they should be fighting in a war torn country instead of having the audacity to seek refuge elsewhere, not because he was simply stating his opinion. 

And this was based on what, an experience at a refugee shelter? If you gathered 40 white homeless people you'll most likely have some behavior and attitude problems as well. Should we start generalizing white people too based on the behavior of a few of their most downtrodden? Maybe we should ship them off too perhaps? I wonder what kind of parasite or pest I should compare them to without coming across as bigoted.

It's utterly ridiculous and borderline racist. As if to imply that it's some inherent cultural or religious flaw which makes them behave that way and not extreme circumstance coupled with personal character flaws. I mean it's nice to know the heroic origin story behind why he thinks we're about to be swarmed by locus...I mean brown peo...I mean refugees, and I appreciate that he took the time to retell it in detail but you'll have to forgive me for thinking it adds nothing to the discussion but ignorance.

Listen, you sort the darkies out, and I'll sort the whitey's out ok?

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

People were piling on him because he likened them to swarms and stated they should be fighting in a war torn country instead of having the audacity to seek refuge elsewhere, not because he was simply stating his opinion. 

And this was based on what, an experience at a refugee shelter? If you gathered 40 white homeless people you'll most likely have some behavior and attitude problems as well. Should we start generalizing white people too based on the behavior of a few of their most downtrodden? Maybe we should ship them off too perhaps? I wonder what kind of parasite or pest I should compare them to without coming across as bigoted.

It's utterly ridiculous and borderline racist. As if to imply that it's some inherent cultural or religious flaw which makes them behave that way and not extreme circumstance coupled with personal character flaws. I mean it's nice to know the heroic origin story behind why he thinks we're about to be swarmed by locus...I mean brown peo...I mean refugees, and I appreciate that he took the time to retell it in detail but you'll have to forgive me for thinking it adds nothing to the discussion but ignorance.

Oh, I completely agree with you about taking any group of people and finding some bad ones amongst them. I also agree that the whole "swarms" and "rats" stuff is lamentable and lazy. Like I said I was sort of tempted to pile in as well.

To be honest various posters on here sometimes post similar views to his, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say why, before. I don't agree with them and have often said so (and tried to say why). I'd like more people to say "why" .

[Keyblade]

Just now, blandy said:

Oh, I completely agree with you about taking any group of people and finding some bad ones amongst them. I also agree that the whole "swarms" and "rats" stuff is lamentable and lazy. Like I said I was sort of tempted to pile in as well.

To be honest various posters on here sometimes post similar views to his, and I don't think I've ever seen anyone say why, before. I don't agree with them and have often said so (and tried to say why). I'd like more people to say "why" .

Gotcha, I see where you're coming from. Maybe it was an insightful post after all  

[a m ole]

54 minutes ago, blandy said:

I liked @LxYoungAVFC long post, because he explained why he posted earlier what he did. And although it's only a relatively small sample, it's the sort of information that is needed to be heard (along with other examples whatever they might illustrate).

It also seems credible that people fleeing the horrors of wars are not the only people taking much the same route to Europe. There are signs of demographic imbalance in the make up of the incomers - by that I mean there do seem to be disproportionately high numbers of young unaccompanied men, which seems to indicate that simply fleeing war might not be the sole  reason for people coming - that seeking work, or money (if only to send back to their poor families) might also be a motive. The absolutely vast numbers of people turning up does present a problem. The very different nature of religions and cultures will also create problems.
I think that wanting to help people who genuinely need help is not incompatible with a desire to keep terrorists, radicals, economic migrants, people smugglers and other criminals away.
 

it was the nature of the first few posts that prompted the pile on.

 

Ignore, just seen your response!

Edited March 22, 2016 by a m ole

[Demitri_C]

I notice a lot of turks on my social media are like when its france/belgium it gets such the coverage when its happening in turkey its not important and talked about

what a load of b0ll0cks

[Rugeley Villa]

im not surprised anymore and its impossible to stop these attacks. warped version of islam strikes again, france and belgium among other countries are full of this bastard ideology. more attacks will come which we all know and europe will carry on breeding and feeding these horrible clearings in the woods. immigration will come into it and is it any surprise. anyway nothing will change,well it will because its just going to get worse as anyone with half a brain cell knows. feel sorry for decent muslims and decent folk who are dying. the left will blame this on everyone else apart from the evil clearings in the woods that are acting on gods word.

ALLAH AKBUR!  **** brain dead mongs.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Rugeley Villa

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

the left will blame this on everyone else apart from the evil clearings in the woods that are acting on gods word

Bet you the left doesn't, Ruge. Some of them might, but like wit the discussion above, you can't/shouldn't take some group (Islamics, Lefties) and tar them all with the same brush because a few do or say a bad thing.

Most people, of whatever religions/political outlook/creed will condemn completely the murderous people who did this.

[Awol]

This might be another novelesque post so feel free to skip now rather than complain later...

Sympathies with the people of Brussels this evening, but I'm afraid this is what normal looks like now. It will go on for decades. We are 15 years on from 9/11 and the list of attacks and attempted attacks conducted since then by Salafi Jihadist terrorists could fill a full page of this forum.  As Trotsky said, "you may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you". It's not war in the conventional or nuclear clash of titanic armies that many of us grew up dreading, it is an evolution of war - or more properly a regression - to more savage times, methods and objectives, but it is still war. We are not yet prepared mentally, politically, socially or militarily to grapple with what this means for open western societies, so it follows that we are vulnerable to those domestic forces who would play on the perfectly understandable public fears for their own ends. This opens up possibilities that are structurally more dangerous than the relatively small numbers killed in even the spectacular attacks - with the exception of 9/11.  Yet our politicians are comprehensively failing to even speak the problem by name, let alone to lead and shape public discourse in a credible fashion. 

Whatever your views on mass immigration the fact is Europe now hosts large communities from the Islamic world and many of their countries of origin are convulsed by brutal conflicts approaching generational length with a very long way still to run, getting far worse before things improve. That is not the fault of the West and blaming ourselves badly misreads the underlying causes like massive demographic and social change, nevertheless the extreme violence involved spreads like an ideologically borne pathogen through the corresponding diaspora populations now living in Europe, Australia, the USA etc.

It doesn't help that the Western European policy of multi-culturalism has encouraged people not to integrate into their host countries as well as they might otherwise have done. This potentially increases a sense of otherness for some, and a vulnerability to radicalisation by ideologies rooted in societies they may look to with a heightened nostalgia to situate their own sense of self and place in the world. Clearly I'm talking about a minority of people here or we'd be up to our guts in Bosnia style civil wars all over Europe, but it's worth noting how much this differs from the US experience where people arrive to become Americans, swear allegiance to apple pie and cheer hysterically at terrible sports. Joking aside it works and the evidence proves that.  There is no quick fix for European societies but we need to start thinking very quickly about how to do things better, because.... 

Several million people from these conflict blighted regions have either already arrived in Europe or are in transit. This is the front end of the wave and there are many times that number who will follow over the next few years. Syria is devastated and should the war end tomorrow (and it will not) the country would take 20-30 years to rebuild. 11 million people from that country are already either refugees (outside Syria's borders) or internally displaced. With no homes to return to in many cases they are likely to follow. This will go on and on, increasing still further as more countries melt down. It's not beyond imagination that in a decade the Middle East will consist of Turkey, Egypt, Israel and Iran, while the remainder resembles a  version of Mad Max - with camels.  

We all know Europe has no plan to deal with this, we can also be pretty sure that there is finite appeal amongst voters to resettle half of the Middle East and North Africa down their street. Why should they? It's not their mess, and those migrants (either genuine refugees or like many, simply economic migrants) are coming. People also understand that terrorists are moving within these refugee and migrant flows. The British head of Europol has said that 3000-5000 EU citizens had returned to Europe from Syria, trained, hardened and potentially ready to commit violence at home. In my view we are no longer facing a terrorist threat, this is now Unconventional Warfare by an entirely new set of actors and there are lots of them. Where is the real debate about how we should be dealing with this? The Security Services can't monitor that many targets, even when identify and location are known. 

Obviously painting all Muslims as terrorists because of incidents like today is the height of ignorance, but equally pretending the violence has nothing to do with Islam is evidently wrong and self defeating. We as societies need to face this and have a grown up conversation about how to deal with it, fast.