U.S. Politics

[il_serpente]

1 hour ago, juanpabloangel18 said:

The pro-life / evangelist lobby are just useful idiots who've been weaponized by the billionaire class, this is about:

- correcting the falling US birth rate and ensuring a healthy supply of wage slaves for said billionaire class (a poor kid born out of wedlock with no social power whatsoever - perfect)

- keeping the prisons full and profitable

I say they're idiots because their position is fundamentally inconsistent - you won't find the pro-life camp also campaigning for free healthcare and midwifery for all pregnant women, funny that?

Kanye West's position that all women who choose not to get an abortion should get a $1m cheque is more logically coherent, and he's bipolar

The bolded part is very true.   Do you really think Mitch McConnell gives a sh*t about abortion?  He and his ilk pushed for the conservative justices because doing so would keep the religious conservatives voting Republican reliably.  The culture wars were stoked by that party to keep a bunch of people so emotionally invested in side issues that they'd continue to vote against their own best interests.

This idea that Roe v. Wade was a sucker punch to deeply held conservative beliefs is revisionist history.   There was no passionate, widely held opposition to abortion before Roe, even among conservatives at the time.  Passionate opposition to abortion as a fundamental component of conservatism didn't really come about until nearly a decade after the ruling as Jerry Fallwell's Moral Majority started getting evangelicals involved in politics and helped put Reagan in power.  Once-moderate (or at least not extreme) Republicans saw the opportunity to lock in a lot of votes among easily-swayed and often uneducated people whose interests should otherwise have inclined them to vote Democratic.   It's no accident that a lot of Republicans who were on the record as being pro choice years ago (including Bush the elder) suddenly claimed to oppose abortion and support overturn of Roe.

[CVByrne]

It's amazing how US Democracy is effectively broken to its core. They cannot pass any laws at National level even when they have majorities. I think they need to end the rules like filibuster which basically stops any legislation the opposition don't like from going anywhere. Then the country is governable.

It amazes me that over here in Europe where we have functioning democracies you just vote in a Government and they pass laws. 

Take Roe v Wade, why on earth are a handful of hand picked Judges deciding things every other democracy simply passed laws on. They really need to just accept that the whole concept of the United States has run its course. Let it all laws be decided at state level but allow those states the latitude to override parts of the constitution like the right to bear arms. 

If some states want to ban abortion then others should be allowed to ban guns. Without the possibility to pass state laws that conflict with the constitution the country as a whole will further descend into further chaos. 

[sidcow]

This really is one of the most depressing threads on VT and also quite scary. 

I'm beginning to think Trump might get back in again if he isn't criminally convicted, and even if he isn't someone even more mental/poisonous might get in Biden is so unpopular. America could be devestated.  It really does feel like the fall of Rome. Where does that leave The World? 

[Harkanon]

11 hours ago, Arj Guy said:

So now some of you guys care so much about freedom despite also wanting American citizens to have their guns taken away. I guess you only care about freedom when it suits your own politics. I’m not anti abortion btw

Thats a false equivalency.  An equation that cannot be solved.  Spin it the other way as an example -   We must stop people being able to kill their unborn chidlren.  Women can do this by killing themselves with their guns.  We must take away the freedom to own guns to protect the unborn children.

It's ridiculous I know but trying to equate the ownership of things to what you do with your own body is a non argument and actually hurt my brain reading it.

[desensitized43]

40 minutes ago, sidcow said:

This really is one of the most depressing threads on VT and also quite scary. 

I'm beginning to think Trump might get back in again if he isn't criminally convicted, and even if he isn't someone even more mental/poisonous might get in Biden is so unpopular. America could be devestated.  It really does feel like the fall of Rome. Where does that leave The World? 

I think it’s pretty much inevitable at this point that if he’s allowed to run he’ll win. He got more votes that any losing candidate in history.

America has always been a divided country but I can’t remember it being this bad in my lifetime. I’m not old enough to remember the civil rights and anti Vietnam struggle but it certainly feels like we’re getting back to that point.

Am I right in saying secession is a word being thrown around in places like California?

[nick76]

[CVByrne]

Like it's the only Democratic country where when a significant majority (or 2/3rd) are in favour of something (Abortion/Gun Control) they still can't do anything. 

Elected politicians act based solely on what benefits them in election terms. Which is based on who gives me money for my campaign and who will fund my opponents. Thus powerful lobby groups and those with money steer the ship ultimately. 

[AXD]

9 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

I think it’s pretty much inevitable at this point that if he’s allowed to run he’ll win. He got more votes that any losing candidate in history.

America has always been a divided country but I can’t remember it being this bad in my lifetime. I’m not old enough to remember the civil rights and anti Vietnam struggle but it certainly feels like we’re getting back to that point.

Am I right in saying secession is a word being thrown around in places like California?

You could also say the evangelicals have now less reason to vote for him. He can’t promise to overturn Roe anymore, it’s done. That argument now lies with the democrats, reinstate Roe or an equivalent.

I read Freakonomics a while back. It stuck with me that it argued that about 20 years after Roe v Wade, crime rates dropped since there were less children born into poverty or foster care. We’ll see in 20 years if that argument was true.

[nick76]

13 hours ago, LondonLax said:

As an interesting aside, I believe that is what the Swiss do.

Getting back on topic though, US states do have elections for a representative state democracy. If the voters of a state believe in something and vote in a specific government representatives to enact that, but are then told they are not allowed to do it because other states have told them they are not allowed to, is that democratic?

If we take another example.

If a region like Scotland wants to stay in the EU and Scotland’s voters all vote passionately on that basis, but are forced to leave the EU because a majority of voters in other states outside of Scotland voted to take them out, is that democratic?

If voters in Missouri passionately believe in criminalising abortion but are forced to legalise it because a majority of voters in other states have told them they have to, is that democratic?

At what point do we draw the line on what is considered ‘democratic’? 

The flaw in your argument is that you don’t vote based on a single issue. Somebody could agree with the Republican platform generally but not on abortion.  They may have voted Republican because they had been told that Roe was settled law even by the new Supreme Court justices so voted Republican in line with their beliefs. They would probably voted Republican anyway but the representatives may not reflect some states voters on this individual issue.  Obviously some states they will.

[Straggler]

The fricking idiots cheering this decision on still think they are inflicting this law on other people.  It's the immoral people having sex outside of wedlock, harlot women, the dregs of society being held to account for the sinful lives they live.  But like Brexit, they have utterly failed to notice that the impact will be felt in their own homes and indeed their own bodies.  In Mississippi now a white skinned, gun toting, church going, red voting, heterosexual, truck driving, country music listening man and woman can fall in love get married and decide to get pregnant.  They are all excited and tell everyone, they drive together to the clinic and get all the scans done, all is well and life is good.  Then the worst happens.  One day our beautiful belle slips and falls in the bathroom.  It's an accident pure and simple, but the unborn life is snuffed out.  Our quarterback jock has been downstairs watching the NFL with a few beers.  He rushes up to find his fallen wife, and they together rush to hospital to find out the worst news of their lives.  Belle is treated with some drugs to ensure she is not infected by the failed pregnancy, and go home to start the first day of their now tragedy inflicted lives.

The next day.  Knock knock, it's the police. The house is now a crime scene.  Belle and QB Jock are suspected of carrying out an unlawful termination.  Can Belle and QB jock prove that this was an accident?  It turns out that the clinic they go to is already being investigated for carrying out unlawful terminations.  Of course, they didn't know that, why would they, but the circumstantial evidence is adding up.  Oh, and the drugs Belle was given to prevent infection are similar enough to the drugs used to induce an abortion that this is really beginning to look suspect.  Best go get a good lawyer, gosh that is expensive.  But how are miscarriages investigated by the police.  It turns out with her rights to privacy of her own body stripped away like this, that really quite invasive and intimate physical examinations of her body by the police are standard operating procedure.  The day after her miscarriage, full of grief, she is on a cold bed in a police facility, being probed, poked and having samples taken from.  Treated like a criminal. 

QB Jock is in a different police facility.  He had been drinking the day of the crime.  It's not a good look for him, also he had shared driving responsibilities over their many trips to the Dr, so he is now an accessory to the murder of the unborn child.  As they go through it, all Belle and Jock can think is that the abortion laws were not supposed to be for people like them, it was supposed to be for the other folk.  You know, the bad ones that don't go to church and wear short skirts.  Not us, we make homemade lemonade.  How did they end up coming for us?

They may both go to jail.  For years.  You gonna tell me that the police in the USA haven't made wrongful convictions?

Even if they don't go to jail, just consider that every miscarriage is now a potential crime scene.  Think how the US police may decide to investigate.  The picture is not pretty.

[bannedfromHandV]

Great, let’s have more children and more mouths to feed in the face of dwindling resources, although we shouldn’t be too worried I guess as climate change catastrophe will ensure that most if not all babies born from this point on will unlikely live a full life anyway.

[nick76]

12 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Yeah, I’ve not read it myself so couldn’t say  

The impression I get from them is they see abortion as akin to murder and feel like they have human rights on their side when banning it.

It getting weirder because their bible and related texts it has a lot murder from memory.  The flood of Noah is basically genocide, God also tells Isaac to kill his son and then isn’t the ‘Ordeal of the Bitter Water’ a faithful to the husband test for the pregnant woman, that if the woman has been unfaithful the belly swells and the baby dies.

[bickster]

45 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

I think it’s pretty much inevitable at this point that if he’s allowed to run he’ll win. He got more votes that any losing candidate in history.

He didn’t win the popular vote when he won, what’s your point?

That he got more votes than any other loser is merely a product of the high turnout in the election. He didn’t win the popular vote then either

So Trump when running for President haas never won the popular Vote

 

[CVByrne]

Surely the recent Roe Vs Wade and right to bear arms on the person rulings from the Supreme Court will galvanize the left to get out and vote otherwise more rights will be eroded. It depends who is the Democratic candidate and how bad the coming recession is

[desensitized43]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

He didn’t win the popular vote when he won, what’s your point?

That he got more votes than any other loser is merely a product of the high turnout in the election. He didn’t win the popular vote then either

So Trump when running for President haas never won the popular Vote

 

My point is that he has a large base of support in the states at the last election that could turn out for him again. It's my fear that they will and he'll get elected if those opposing these fascists decide to stay at home.

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

My point is that he has a large base of support in the states at the last election that could turn out for him again. It's my fear that they will and he'll get elected if those opposing these fascists decide to stay at home.

Well if the overturning of Roe v Wade doesn't make the left turn out nothing will

[desensitized43]

7 minutes ago, bickster said:

Well if the overturning of Roe v Wade doesn't make the left turn out nothing will

Agreed

[His Name Is Death]

Probably wasn't the satire they were going for in 1992, but the idea that someone as unintelligent as Bart Simpson could be Chief Justice of the Supreme Court in the 2030s doesn't seem so far-fetched now.

[StefanAVFC]

2 hours ago, Straggler said:

The fricking idiots cheering this decision on still think they are inflicting this law on other people.  It's the immoral people having sex outside of wedlock, harlot women, the dregs of society being held to account for the sinful lives they live.  But like Brexit, they have utterly failed to notice that the impact will be felt in their own homes and indeed their own bodies.  In Mississippi now a white skinned, gun toting, church going, red voting, heterosexual, truck driving, country music listening man and woman can fall in love get married and decide to get pregnant.  They are all excited and tell everyone, they drive together to the clinic and get all the scans done, all is well and life is good.  Then the worst happens.  One day our beautiful belle slips and falls in the bathroom.  It's an accident pure and simple, but the unborn life is snuffed out.  Our quarterback jock has been downstairs watching the NFL with a few beers.  He rushes up to find his fallen wife, and they together rush to hospital to find out the worst news of their lives.  Belle is treated with some drugs to ensure she is not infected by the failed pregnancy, and go home to start the first day of their now tragedy inflicted lives.

The next day.  Knock knock, it's the police. The house is now a crime scene.  Belle and QB Jock are suspected of carrying out an unlawful termination.  Can Belle and QB jock prove that this was an accident?  It turns out that the clinic they go to is already being investigated for carrying out unlawful terminations.  Of course, they didn't know that, why would they, but the circumstantial evidence is adding up.  Oh, and the drugs Belle was given to prevent infection are similar enough to the drugs used to induce an abortion that this is really beginning to look suspect.  Best go get a good lawyer, gosh that is expensive.  But how are miscarriages investigated by the police.  It turns out with her rights to privacy of her own body stripped away like this, that really quite invasive and intimate physical examinations of her body by the police are standard operating procedure.  The day after her miscarriage, full of grief, she is on a cold bed in a police facility, being probed, poked and having samples taken from.  Treated like a criminal. 

QB Jock is in a different police facility.  He had been drinking the day of the crime.  It's not a good look for him, also he had shared driving responsibilities over their many trips to the Dr, so he is now an accessory to the murder of the unborn child.  As they go through it, all Belle and Jock can think is that the abortion laws were not supposed to be for people like them, it was supposed to be for the other folk.  You know, the bad ones that don't go to church and wear short skirts.  Not us, we make homemade lemonade.  How did they end up coming for us?

They may both go to jail.  For years.  You gonna tell me that the police in the USA haven't made wrongful convictions?

Even if they don't go to jail, just consider that every miscarriage is now a potential crime scene.  Think how the US police may decide to investigate.  The picture is not pretty.

Great post. 
 

@Arj Guy clearly finds it hilarious though. 

[DCJonah]

2 hours ago, Straggler said:

The fricking idiots cheering this decision on still think they are inflicting this law on other people.  It's the immoral people having sex outside of wedlock, harlot women, the dregs of society being held to account for the sinful lives they live.  But like Brexit, they have utterly failed to notice that the impact will be felt in their own homes and indeed their own bodies.  In Mississippi now a white skinned, gun toting, church going, red voting, heterosexual, truck driving, country music listening man and woman can fall in love get married and decide to get pregnant.  They are all excited and tell everyone, they drive together to the clinic and get all the scans done, all is well and life is good.  Then the worst happens.  One day our beautiful belle slips and falls in the bathroom.  It's an accident pure and simple, but the unborn life is snuffed out.  Our quarterback jock has been downstairs watching the NFL with a few beers.  He rushes up to find his fallen wife, and they together rush to hospital to find out the worst news of their lives.  Belle is treated with some drugs to ensure she is not infected by the failed pregnancy, and go home to start the first day of their now tragedy inflicted lives.

The next day.  Knock knock, it's the police. The house is now a crime scene.  Belle and QB Jock are suspected of carrying out an unlawful termination.  Can Belle and QB jock prove that this was an accident?  It turns out that the clinic they go to is already being investigated for carrying out unlawful terminations.  Of course, they didn't know that, why would they, but the circumstantial evidence is adding up.  Oh, and the drugs Belle was given to prevent infection are similar enough to the drugs used to induce an abortion that this is really beginning to look suspect.  Best go get a good lawyer, gosh that is expensive.  But how are miscarriages investigated by the police.  It turns out with her rights to privacy of her own body stripped away like this, that really quite invasive and intimate physical examinations of her body by the police are standard operating procedure.  The day after her miscarriage, full of grief, she is on a cold bed in a police facility, being probed, poked and having samples taken from.  Treated like a criminal. 

QB Jock is in a different police facility.  He had been drinking the day of the crime.  It's not a good look for him, also he had shared driving responsibilities over their many trips to the Dr, so he is now an accessory to the murder of the unborn child.  As they go through it, all Belle and Jock can think is that the abortion laws were not supposed to be for people like them, it was supposed to be for the other folk.  You know, the bad ones that don't go to church and wear short skirts.  Not us, we make homemade lemonade.  How did they end up coming for us?

They may both go to jail.  For years.  You gonna tell me that the police in the USA haven't made wrongful convictions?

Even if they don't go to jail, just consider that every miscarriage is now a potential crime scene.  Think how the US police may decide to investigate.  The picture is not pretty.

Like too many things in politics, it's more about your side winning. So even though you live a miserable life you can feel that winning feeling as you cheer decisions that will negatively impact so many others.